Originally posted by stellspalfie
that wasnt 'essentially' what i was saying. i was saying that im surprised a man with your interest in debating and watching debates on youtube has never come across an atheist explanation for the existence of morality. most debates between the likes of dawkins, harris and krauss with de'souza, lane and lennox cover the topic at some point.
moralit ...[text shortened]... intrinsic set of morals. for example some christians believe in the death penalty others do not.
that wasnt 'essentially' what i was saying.
Okay. I acknowledge that as unfair of me.
i was saying that im surprised a man with your interest in debating and watching debates on youtube has never come across an atheist explanation for the existence of morality.
I have seen the debates. I have re-visited some of them a second and third and even fourth time.
Particularly the debate between Shelly Kagin (spelling?) of Yale and William Lane Craig
"Is God Needed For Morality?"
At first I thought Shelly Kagin, humanist ethicist, scored very high. I still think he did very well to argue that God was not needed for morality. But as I re-visited the debate in subsequent sessions, I thought - "Well, maybe not good enough".
My question here is the the Atheists who so boldly denounce a man like Dasa as having failed morality in some grand sense, which practically everyone obviously agrees.
Okay. But why ? Why if God does not exist, does he commit an moral offense against what OUGHT to be spoken ?
most debates between the likes of dawkins, harris and krauss with de'souza, lane and lennox cover the topic at some point.
Come now. Dawkins is scared to debate Craig.
Lawrence Krauss I cannot consider really a debater on that issue.
Krauss is too use to interrupting and dodging Craig like a nervous grasshopper in a hen house.
Probably Sam Harris on the ethics matter tries to be consistent.
I am asking
you[/b] fellas about Dasa's speech specifically.
Richard Dawkins would probably just say that Dasa is "dancing to [his] DNA".
Well if Dasa is just dancing to his DNA, why is his speech objectively evil?
Do you want to endorse Richard Dawkin's explanation that we all are just acting according to the dictates of our DNA?
morality is just a description of an individuals values, we can have our own morality and our own morality varies between individuals.
Morality is not just descriptive. It is prescriptive. We OUGHT to act this way. We OUGHT NOT to act that way.
According to the consensus of Atheists (and others here) Dasa OUGHT not to have spoken such things. IE. [i]ALL Moslems rounded up and executed (or some such other extreme remedy to terrorism)
Biology is descriptive - saying a living organism behaves in this way because of this or that. A moral judgement upon Dasa's speech is more than a descriptive issue. It is prescribing how Dasa SHOULD act as opposed to how he SHOULD NOT.
Whose grand prescription determine's his failure to live up to this OUGHT in an objective way? Whose morality have you instituted as the ultimate standard by which Dasa's talk is measured against?
however our values are heavily influenced by the society we grow up in and our genetics.
If Dasa's genes are bad genes then I don't see that his speech is objectively really evil.
If society scolds Dasa today for his bad speech, what about someday when society agrees that the Moslems should
all be rounded up and executed? Don't say society cannot come to such a point.
Remember Germany's "Final Solution".
so our values are not purely our own but also a reflection of our society.
That is not too solid a bases.
And WHOSE society anyway?
ISIS has a society.
Boko Horam has a society.
Al Qaeda has their society too.
And Dasa appears to be speaking for his society OR attempting to convince his society to come over to his viewpoint.
Why is Dasa's speech objectively evil ?
If there is no God, why is his speech objectively below the ultimate standard of what is good to speak ?
we develop these traits to help us be successful in our society.
Dasa says that "SUCCESS" in society would be measured by the elimination of all Moslems.
Hitler's Final Solution prescribed an method of achieving success for Germany.
Society's success cannot be the ultimate standard to make Dasa's speech objectively evil.
if our morals stray to far from the average then we maybe perceived as a threat to the success of the society.
Wasn't turning over the Jews to the Nazis the "average" member of the German society? Dasa prescribes what average behavior will render society successful.
What makes his method objectively evil?
we can easily see the effects of society influencing morality by looking at the huge moral differences between countries. we can see the effects of the individual mind by observing how people react when put in moral dilemmas.
surely the huge varieties of morals through christian countries and people show that they do not all have an intrinsic set of morals. for example some christians believe in the death penalty others do not.
I agree that "Christian countries" ( if there really is such things) have different civic laws.
However, Christian belief acknowledges as last judgment where the ultimate moral buck STOPS.
God is seen as the final moral agent whose very nature determines what measures up to what is right and what misses the mark. The word "sin" is derived from archery I am told. And to miss the mark or miss the target is the idea behind the word SIN. That is a missing of the mark.
The mark is the nature of God.
In Atheism how is the mark missed?
How is it the Atheists are in agreement here that Dasa has objectively missed that moral mark which somehow they say exists and should be hit?