Originally posted by @fmf Romans 13:1 doesn't mention "force". Not sure where you are getting that from. What it does say, however, is: "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God."
By established I do not think it means forced but rather 'made possible through means of free will" .
Originally posted by @dj2becker Every Government that has existed God has established by giving people free will. If God hadn't given people free will there would be no governments would there?
Originally posted by @dj2becker By established I do not think it means forced but rather 'made possible through means of free will" .
The words "established" and "put in place" do not mean "made possible through the means of free will". It's a disingenuous stretch at best, nonsense at worst.
Originally posted by @fmf The words "established" and "put in place" do not mean "made possible through the means of free will". It's a disingenuous stretch at best, nonsense at worst.
Tell me which premise above doesn't follow and why.
Originally posted by @dj2becker 1. God gave people free will.
2. People use free will to establish government.
3. God establishes governments through people who use their free will.
Which premise does not follow?
Governments established by the free will of people did not come along until the C20th. The governments put in place and established at the time of Romans 13:1 and for most of the 1,900-2,000 years that followed were anathema to and systematically abrogated the people's free will and, instead, if Romans 13:1 is to be believed, reflected the will of your god figure
Originally posted by @dj2becker Every Government that has existed God has established by giving people free will.
The governments were either established by your god figure and then put in place ~ as Romans 13:1 clearly says they were ~ or they were established and put in place by people. If Romans 13:1 means that all governments are established by people and put in place by their own free will, then why doesn't it say that? Why does it say the opposite?
Originally posted by @fmf The meaning of words we are discussing and the meaning you are attributing to them, for all intents and purposes, are opposites.
Did God force governments to form or were they formed as a results of the free will that God gave people?
Those are the only two options I see, if there is any other option feel free to share it.
Originally posted by @dj2becker Did God force governments to form or were they formed as a results of the free will that God gave people?
Those are the only two options I see, if there is any other option feel free to share it.
There is no word "forced" in Romans 13:1; just the words "established" and "put in place", not by people but by your god figure. Some translations use the words "instituted", "placed" or "ordained". All governments are thus, according to your Bible, "ordained" by your god. Not by "people" but by "God".
Originally posted by @fmf Governments established by the free will of people did not come along until the C20th. The governments put in place and established at the time of Romans 13:1 and for most of the 1,900-2,000 years that followed were anathema to and systematically abrogated the people's free will and, instead, if Romans 13:1 is to be believed, reflected the will of your god figure
So you are saying God forced the Romans and every following ruler to rule against their will? 🙄
Originally posted by @dj2becker Those are the only two options I see, if there is any other option feel free to share it.
The two hypothetical options are that governments were established by your god figure, or they were established by people. Romans 13:1 does not say "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by the free will of people. The governments which exist have been put in place by the free will of people." No, it doesn't say that. It says they were instituted and ordained by your god figure.
Originally posted by @fmf There is no word "forced" in Romans 13:1; just the words "established" and "put in place", not by people but by your god figure. Some translations use the words "instituted", "placed" or "ordained". All governments are thus, according to your Bible, "ordained" by your god. Not by "people" but by "God".
Indeed God gave people free will, people didn't give themselves free will, free will was instituted by God. Governments are the product of people with free will, so in essence God instituted governments by allowing free will.
Originally posted by @dj2becker So you are saying God forced the Romans and every following ruler to rule against their will? 🙄
The word "forced" does not appear in Romans 13:1. Just the words "established" and "put in place", or in other versions, "ordained" and "set up" and "instituted". And by whom? "People"? No. By your god figure.
Originally posted by @fmf The two hypothetical options are that governments were established by your god figure, or they were established by people. Romans 13:1 does not say "No government would exist if it hadn't been established by the free will of people. The governments which exist have been put in place by the free will of people." No, it doesn't say that. It says they were instituted and ordained by your god figure.
Explain to me a scenario in which God establishes a government without the use of people with free will.
02 Oct '17 06:58
Evil?
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