Evil?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Indeed God gave people free will, people didn't give themselves free will, free will was instituted by God. Governments are the product of people with free will, so in essence God instituted governments by allowing free will.

People instituting governments and a god instituting governments are like opposites. It is sheer sophistry to suggest otherwise.

Did your god figure establish and set up - and ordain - the Nazi government?

Originally posted by @fmf
The word "forced" does not appear in Romans 13:1. Just the words "established" and "put in place", or in other versions, "ordained" and "set up" and "instituted". And by whom? "People"? No. By your god figure.

If the word forced does not appear then it is by the free will of the people that God instituted government since God ordained people to have free will.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Explain to me a scenario in which God establishes a government without the use of people with free will.

Romans 13:1 is not about free will. It's about your god figure instituting governments.

Originally posted by @fmf
People instituting governments and a god instituting governments are like opposites. It is sheer sophistry to suggest otherwise.

Did your god figure establish and set up - and ordain - the Nazi government?

No they are not. It is sheer sophistry to suggest God would force people to do things against their will.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If the word forced does not appear then it is by the free will of the people that God instituted government since God ordained people to have free will.

Romans 13:1 does not mention the words "force", "allow", "free will" or "people". It mentions that there is no government that was not set up by god. Was the Nazi government ordained and put in place by your god?

Originally posted by @fmf
Romans 13:1 is not about free will. It's about your god figure instituting governments.

How exactly would God institute governments if not by free will? The only other logical alternative is by force. We both agree it was not by force.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
It is sheer sophistry to suggest God would force people to do things against their will.

Then why does Romans 13:2 say "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How exactly would God institute governments if not by free will?

By establishing and ordaining governments in accordance with his will, as Romans 13:1 describes him as doing.

Originally posted by @fmf
By establishing and ordaining governments in accordance with his will, as Romans 13:1 describes him as doing.

And why would his will not include allowing people the free will to form governments of their choosing.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
And why would his will not include allowing people the free will to form governments of their choosing.

But Romans 13 isn't talking about that at all. Romans 13 isn't talking about any person's free will. Romans 13 is telling people what they have to do and dictating that they must bend to his will and accept the governments he has instituted.

Originally posted by @fmf
Then why does Romans 13:2 say "Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

If the government were to follow the laws of God, rebelling against that would be rebelling against what God has instituted. (i.e his laws). That's why there is a clarification in Acts that we should obey God above men.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If the government were to follow the laws of God, rebelling against that would be rebelling against what God has instituted. (i.e his laws). That's why there is a clarification in Acts that we should obey God above men.

Which governments were following "the laws of God" at the time Romans 13:1 was written? List a few of them.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If the government were to follow the laws of God, rebelling against that would be rebelling against what God has instituted. (i.e his laws). That's why there is a clarification in Acts that we should obey God above men.

Do you believe the Nazi government was ordained and put in place by your god, as Romans 13 clearly states?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
No they are not. It is sheer sophistry to suggest God would force people to do things against their will.

Well that explains the flood. Everything everywhere (except for the fishes) said yes god please kill us all.

Originally posted by @fmf
Do you believe the Nazi government was ordained and put in place by your god, as Romans 13 clearly states?

I believe what the Bible says not your twisted version of it.