1. Joined
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    15 Sep '11 18:49
    Eating meat is an essential component in the rise of the human race:

    http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

    How is it not then essential now?
  2. Joined
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    15 Sep '11 18:59
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Eating meat is an essential component in the rise of the human race:

    http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

    How is it not then essential now?
    supposedly because we can get a certain vegetable from across the globe that would give us what we lack. that we could get suplements, that we don't have famines from time to time so there is no need to store fat, that we have the money to pay for vegetarian, healthy food.

    the vegetarian lifestyle is doable. however eating weeds isn't "better" than eating meat and eggs from time to time. sure, it's better than eating pizza and hamburgers.
  3. Pale Blue Dot
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    15 Sep '11 19:02
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Eating meat is an essential component in the rise of the human race:

    http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

    How is it not then essential now?
    It's not essential now because we can get optimal nutrition from plant sources.

    From your link:
    Milton said that her theories do not reflect on today's vegetarian diets, which can be completely adequate, given modern knowledge of nutrition.

    "We know a lot about nutrition now and can design a very satisfactory vegetarian diet," said Milton, a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy & Management.
  4. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    15 Sep '11 19:09
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Eating meat is an essential component in the rise of the human race:

    http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

    How is it not then essential now?
    It certainly appears to have been necessary to get us to where we are now, but now we are able to go beyond that. Do you not think that that is a good thing?
  5. Pale Blue Dot
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    15 Sep '11 19:17
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    supposedly because we can get a certain vegetable from across the globe that would give us what we lack. that we could get suplements, that we don't have famines from time to time so there is no need to store fat, that we have the money to pay for vegetarian, healthy food.

    the vegetarian lifestyle is doable. however eating weeds isn't "better" t ...[text shortened]... ting meat and eggs from time to time. sure, it's better than eating pizza and hamburgers.
    Please back up your claims:

    (1) Vegetarian nutrition must be sourced from all over the world.
    (2) Vegetarians need supplements.
    (3) Vegetarians cannot store fat.
    (4) Vegetarian diets are more expensive.
  6. Standard memberDasa
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    15 Sep '11 19:53
    (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.27.11, purport)

    Hidden Price of Meat

    One of the main problems of modern civilization is hunger. According to the Vedic view, scarcity is the result of the negative karma generated by the destructive actions of the world's population and not the result of overpopulation. The earth is perfectly capable of providing all the food necessary for whoever lives on its surface. Scarcity is due to our own greed and insensitivity to other living beings, such as the animals we kill. More than half the annual world deforestation clears land for beef cattle, which consume about half the world's grain production. Grain cycled through animals looses 90% of its protein. Professor Wayne Meyer, Program Leader for Sustainable Agriculture in CSIRO's Land and Water Division provided a comparison of water-use efficiency for different kinds of foods produced, with meat emerging as by far the worst water-to-food converter of all. To grow one kilo of maize, Meyer explained, requires between 540 to 630 litres of water, wheat needs 715 to 750 litres, rice 1,550 to 2,000 litres, and soybeans 1,650 to 2,200 litres, while to produce one kilo of beef requires between 50,000 to 100,000 litres of water. [Meyer, Wayne, 1998. Water For Food. http://www.clw.csiro.au/publications/water_for_food.pdf] "It is estimated that it takes approximately 16.4 kilos of grain or 30 kilos of forage to produce 1 kilo of lamb; 13.3 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of beef; 8.3 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of eggs; 6.3 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of pork; 4.3 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of turkey; and 2.6 kilos of grain to produce 1 kilo of chicken." [Francione, Gary. An Introduction to Animal Rights. Your Child or the Dog? Temple Press, USA, 2000, p. 195] Economically, biologically, ethically and spiritually, the vegetarian lifestyle and the practice of cow protection are not only beneficial for human society, but also can be seen to provide wide-ranging solutions to the intricate network of problems which is the world now facing. Let us take a closer look together at those most important ones.

    Health

    Eating of cow flesh or the flesh of any other animal, the motivation behind slaughter, is detrimental to the health of human beings. For example, if a human, who has a much longer colon than the carnivorous animals eats flesh

    1. Intestinal flora is changed from fermentative to putrefactive bacteria in the long bowel. Poisons inimical to health are absorbed into the bloodstream with deleterious effects.

    2. The natural synthesis of vitamin B12 is inhibited and causes anaemia.

    3. Animal toxins tend to pervert the metabolism of carbohydrates and cause diabetes.

    4. Non-nutritive substances tend to be irritants and therefore carcinogenic.

    5. Unwanted substances in the bloodstream have to be eliminated, so energy is diverted from other functions, including thinking. Poisons of any description, however mild, affect all the senses and, if the organs of elimination are at all strained, remain in the system a long time.

    6. Parasites are transferred - all carnivorous creatures, including birds, have parasites peculiar to themselves and often cause their deaths - some of these are known to be accommodating themselves to human stomachs.

    7. Flesh eating generally results in an excess of proteins in the organism. The minimum daily requirement of protein, which experts on nutrition calculate to be between 10 and 90 grams, is easily received from vegetable food and from dairy products. Protein is found in ample quantity in milk, cheese, yoghurt, whole wheat, corn, many varieties of nuts and beans and vegetables. Excess of proteins, especially that type produced by consumption of flesh, produces liver ailments, hypertension and hardening of the arteries.

    Vegetables, fruits, grains and dairy products are in perfect balance for proper nutrition. These same vegetable substances, if they reach us through flesh of an animal, are dangerous to health and carry with them the following disease provoking substances:

    - Toxic wastes from the bloodstream, germs and pus, vaccines and drugs injected to offset animal disease.

    - Fear poisons released at the time of slaughter.

    - Bacteria from putrefactive decomposition, which commences as soon as the animal dies. These are not all killed by cooking, as flesh is an excellent insulator and those which are killed leave their poisonous remains behind.

    Meat bearing animals suffer from dozens of diseases and parasites caused through unnatural living and exploitation such as forced feeding, which causes fatty degeneration of organs, endocrine complications through castration diseases including contagious abortion, foot and mouth diseases, fevers, catarrhal conditions, cancer tumours, tuberculosis, mastitis, liver flukes causing ducts to befilled with septic matter (only the liver is condemned, not the carcass), etc; their blood and tissues are impregnated with preventive vaccines. Poultry is often impregnated with oestrogens, which are carcinogens. Animal fats contain cholesterol which is now thought to cause coronary diseases of the heart. Many studies in cancer research reveal that areas in which meat-eating is highest tend to have the highest cancer rate, while vegetarian areas generally have a far lower rate.

    Recently there is a threat of so-called "Mad Cow Disease", technically known as the Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD) in humans. The experts are unsure about its origin and what we can expect from it. One thing seems to be sure: it is much more dangerous than AIDS, and we are sitting on a time bomb. The risk is highest in the brain and nerval tissues, then muscle meat and blood. Those who regularly eat veal (and other beef products) are 13 times more likely to die of CJD than those who don't. [Richard Lacey. The History of Mad Cow Disease. Cypsela Publications, 1995]

    T. H. Huxley in his book "Man's Place in Nature" presents some biological and anatomical reasons which demonstrate that the human species is not carnivorous:

    1. Flesh eaters have very short bowels for rapid expulsion of putrefactive bacteria. Vegetarians, including man, have very long bowels for dealing with the fermentative bacteria which is involved in the digestion of vegetarian foods.

    2. Flesh eaters have long teeth and in many cases have retractable claws for killing and holding prey, whereas vegetarians have sabre-like teeth and claws, though some may have defensive horns.

    3. Meat eaters have jaws which open only in an up and down motion while vegetarians have jaws which can move sideways for chewing.

    4. Flesh eaters do not sweat, but control body heat by extruding the tongue and rapid breathing. Vegetarians have sweat pores for heat control and elimination of impurities.

    5. Flesh eaters' saliva is without ptylin and therefore cannot pre-digest starches. Vegetarians have ptylin in the saliva for this pre-digestive process. 6. Flesh-eaters secrete ten times more hydrochloric acid than vegetarians, sufficient to dissolve bones in the diet.

    7. Flesh eaters lap water, whereas vegetarians take liquids by suction.

    8. Flesh eaters have a consistent tooth configuration, especially with distended canine teeth, as in the example of the cat, whereas vegetarians have short canine teeth, not suitable for tearing flesh.

    Economics

    The implementation of cow protection and a vegetarian diet support at the international level would be a massive step forward in solving the world food crisis. Some economic advantages:

    1. Flesh foods are more than 5O% germ-laden dirty water and therefore extremely costly to buy as a source of protein for which they are eaten. Meat is a very poor source of other food elements, including minerals, vitamins, and carbonhydrates and definitely not the best source of proteins as pretended.

    2. Land which will produce one ton of beef will produce ten to twenty tons of highly nutritive food, suitable for direct human consumption in the same time - without any of the disadvantages inseparable from flesh-foods, and infinitely cheaper.

    3. A flesh eater needs many times as much land to support himself, and his herds as a vegetarian. Since there is only about one acre of fertile land in the world per person it means that someone will be robbed of a fair share.

    4. For every hundred pounds of dry substances eaten by cattle, only four to sixteen pounds come back as flesh-food of very doubtful value. Quite a wasteful and costly method of obtaining food.

    5. If those who insist on eating meat, despite all reasonable arguments to the contrary, would eat only the animals who die naturally rather than by violence, the animals would produce more progeny and there would, after an initial period of apparent scarcity, be much more available meat.

    Some ethical considerations

    Slaughter is a painful process and causes the animal suffering. Animals are sentient creatures with feelings and fears like humans. Not only are they caused to suffer (irrespective of whether they are slaughtered quickly or slowly - most countries have most inhumane laws connected with animal slaughter), but also, as is the case with cows raised on farms for slaughter, the animals live in constant fear of being slaughtered, as they are able to sense and discern what is going on quite easily. The human has no ethical right to end artificially the life of a creature, especially that of a cow, who, through her milk produces wonderful varieties of products, nurses her own offspring and the whole of human society as well. Killing of such highly developed creatures as animals breeds callousness, insensitivity toward all beings and general irreverence toward life.

    Aesthetic factors

    The smells from dead animal carcasses and dead fish are horrible and can only be tolerated by intoxication or other dulling of the senses. Most children ha...
  7. Standard memberDasa
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    15 Sep '11 19:55
    continued...........

    Aesthetic factors

    The smells from dead animal carcasses and dead fish are horrible and can only be tolerated by intoxication or other dulling of the senses. Most children have to be forced to eat the first portions of meat or fish. Vegetarian foods, on the other hand, are colourful, pleasing to the eyesight, to the sense of smell and to the palate.

    Material considerations directly deriving from spiritual wisdom

    Ayurveda teaches that milk contains fine elements of nutrition which have the particular quality of developing finer tissue of the brain which comprehends spiritual knowledge, thus bringing peace to body and mind. Cow manure is a highly valuable commodity. It is used to fertilize crops, as a highly efficient fuel, as shelter as on thatched roofing in warm countries, as a disinfectant and as medicine. The antiseptic and medicinal qualities of cow dung are confirmed by modern science. Cow urine is also a useful medicine for the liver, bloodstream and tuberculosis when administered under proper scriptural guidance. Milk contains many natural antiseptic qualities, because cows who wander in the paddocks eat grass and other natural medicinal herbs that grow wild. Their milk, therefore, contains numerous natural remedies.

    Karma

    Cause and effect form the basic duality within this material world. Whatever happens has a cause and will cause other effects, both directly and indirectly. Chance doesn't exist. Everything is part of a higher cause-effect structure. Cause and effect refer to the principle of action and reaction. According to the Vedic teachings, this principle applies both on physical and nonphysical levels. Mere mechanic causality cannot explain everything. This is especially true regarding phenomena like consciousness, life, individuality, and destiny. Karma is the Sanskrit word for "action". Since the Sanskrit language is multifaceted, karma means much more than this simple translation. Derived from the root kri, "to do, to plan, to execute," karma further means "that which is caused and causing," which suggests that no action is independent. Each action or event is part of a big network of causes and becomes a cause for future reactions or events. This network is coordinated according to the "law of karma" - the law of action and reaction. Human beings are not restricted to act in a specific manner - they have free will but with it comes responsibility. Thus we are free to choose our future, both individually and collectively. We are constantly receiving the reactions of our previous actions that we created using our free will. Therefore we are responsible for our happiness and distress, and the material nature creates the conditions within which we enjoy or suffer. Collective karma is the aggregate of individual karma. If many people do the same thing or support or tolerate some act, then they are collectively responsible for the results and will get a collective reaction, which can be either good or bad according to the act done. Although the law of karma is such that we are never a passive victim of predestination, we are also never free from the laws of creation, which are fixed according to the will of the Creator. The Supreme Lord is eager to see the living beings become happy and advance in spiritual knowledge. So sometimes for their reformation He creates situations and causes things to happen that no one can avoid. Therefore, the ultimate responsibility of the human being is to learn that there is a creator, and to learn how to live in harmony with His will.
  8. Joined
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    15 Sep '11 20:10
    ...another insight could be that eating meat is essential to prevent you turning into a vegetable.
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    15 Sep '11 20:211 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    ...another insight could be that eating meat is essential to prevent you turning into a vegetable.
    Hmm, a brief glimpse of *rolls eyes* that post and I've decided you're right Dive, I'm gonna go with the fully carnivorous diet from now on.
  10. Joined
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    16 Sep '11 19:58
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Hmm, a brief glimpse of *rolls eyes* that post and I've decided you're right Dive, I'm gonna go with the fully carnivorous diet from now on.
    I was referencing the poster above me ALC

    I actually have nothing against vegetarianism at all.

    Just idiots.
  11. Cape Town
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    16 Sep '11 20:09
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Eating meat is an essential component in the rise of the human race:

    http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

    How is it not then essential now?
    Fire and hunting and a whole host of other things were equally essential. We have since found easier ways to achieve the same results.
  12. Joined
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    16 Sep '11 20:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Fire and hunting and a whole host of other things were equally essential. We have since found easier ways to achieve the same results.
    Not really. Not that I care tbh; but fire and hunting has little to do with the biology of evolution. If there is such a thing.
  13. Joined
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    16 Sep '11 21:57
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Not really. Not that I care tbh; but fire and hunting has little to do with the biology of evolution. If there is such a thing.
    You don't think hunting and meat-eating would be equally essential in human evolution? Did early man have fastfood burgers?
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Sep '11 22:13
    Originally posted by Dasa
    continued...........

    Aesthetic factors

    The smells from dead animal carcasses and dead fish are horrible and can only be tolerated by intoxication or other dulling of the senses. Most children have to be forced to eat the first portions of meat or fish. Vegetarian foods, on the other hand, are colourful, pleasing to the eyesight, to the sense of smell and ...[text shortened]... is to learn that there is a creator, and to learn how to live in harmony with His will.
    When meat is cooked, a sweet savor goes up to God.
  15. Joined
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    17 Sep '11 00:46
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    You don't think hunting and meat-eating would be equally essential in human evolution? Did early man have fastfood burgers?
    early humans didn't have agriculture, they were gatherers. when the technology of hunting was discovered, it vastly improved their nutrient intake and that's why it was essential for early development.

    but in the modern world, with abundant and varied agriculture products, meat is no longer essential, it may even be detrimental...but it is still easy to acquire.
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