Originally posted by googlefudgeThere is no reasonable argument for being an Atheist, because no atheist
You are talking about something different.
I have a convincing (if you place any value on reason and evidence) argument for being an atheist.
And there is plenty of evidence that suggests that various specific gods don't exist, and the ability
of science to explain how an awful lot of the universe works removes the need of the god creator role.
...[text shortened]... say "case not made". (unless and until such a time as theists get actual convincing proof)
ever returned from the dead like Christ.
Originally posted by googlefudge[/b] This reply is placed beneath googlefudge's. It is mainly for those who following along who may have an open mind about the subject.
It was a parody of the Christian religion, not a 'how to' manual on how to beat theists.
It was mocking the basic foundation of the religion by rephrasing it in obviously ridiculous terms,
and it never claimed to be anything other than that.
This is not the same as a straw man argument.
EDIT: So no, it didn't contain a straw man Christian.
EDIT2: reposting link for ease of reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiJE71lm8DY
It was a parody of the Christian religion, not a 'how to' manual on how to beat theists.
It was mocking the basic foundation of the religion by rephrasing it in obviously ridiculous terms,
and it never claimed to be anything other than that.
This is not the same as a straw man argument.
EDIT: So no, it didn't contain a straw man Christian.
EDIT2: reposting link for ease of reference.
I would expect you to argue "O, but this is different." Of course you consider your lampoon so uniquely different. And if someone posts another like it from the opposite end, of course, you consider your vaudville "but O, so different." We understand.
The New Testament does say "God so loved the world that He GAVE ... His only begotten Son ..." (John 3:16). Jesus Himself spoke the words. He did not say "God so loved the world that He MURDERED .... His only begotten Son".
Nor does it say that God so loved the world that He TORTURED ... His only begotten Son.
But the Son of God was murdered and tortured. There is no questions about that. But what Jesus said was that God GAVE His only begotten Son. Now God did not just GIVE the Son while He was being murdered and tortured. God GAVE the SON from the entire time of His conception and birth through the thirty three and one half years or so before His execution. He GAVE His Son through the time of the six hours He was being murdered and tortured on His cross. And of course God GAVE His Son, in reality, from then on.
The fact that the Son endured man's murdering and man's torturing is a testament to the ABSOLUTENESS of the Son in being given to the world. He was willing to pass through the torture and murder of man in man's utter hatred for the Righteous One and His Righteous Father.
Because the Son was so totally absolute to obey the Father in the Father's giving of the Son the Father utilized that absoluteness to cause the Son to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the world.
Now this aspect of Christ's dying was a torment upon the Son in the Son being forsaken as God cannot cooexist with SIN. At the request of the Son in His pouring out His soul unto death, He petitioned the Father that His murders would be forgiven.
"And when they came to the place called the Skull there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. And Jesus said, Father, FORGIVE THEM, for they do not know what they are doing ..." (Luke 23:33,34a)
He the Son is still in communion with His Father as He had in eternity. But in answer to this petition for the divine forgiveness of His murders there was the action of God to break in some profound way this eternal fellowship and the Son was FORSAKEN just as SIN is put aside, put away, judged, condemned. Here the Son does not cry out "Father why have you forsaken Me" but in that terrible interruption "My God, my God, Why have You forsaken Me"
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is , My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Matt. 27:46,47)
This was from the NINTH hour. Jesus had already been tortured by man for three hours already hanging there, which crucifixion started sixth hour.
To shorten this post I will stop here. But the important point is that after this forsaking of the Son, in which the NT says He bore our sins in His body unto the tree, and was made sin on our behalf, the fellowship was restored. And He did not say "My God into your hands .." but " ... It is finished" (John 19:30a) and in restored fellowship " And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, *Father*, into Your hands I commit My spirit. And saying this, He expired." (Luke 23:46)
From Father, to My God, My God, to Father (again), we see how the torment was not in God murdering His Son. But torture was from man's execution. But there was a punishment of being forsaken from an eternal bond of fellowship as the Father turned away causing the Son to provide the only means by which His murderers could be forgiven.
"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."
I am not finished yet.
This is a continuation and will contain some repetition.
Jesus uttered that God so loved the world that He GAVE His Son, not that He TORTURED or MURDERED His Son.
The murder and the torture of the man Jesus was from the world. The first three hours on the cross demonatrate this. From the ninth hour, what befalls the events of the cross are not in the hands of man.
From the ninth hour Christ cries out that He is forsaken by God. This is that part of Him that is man - "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me". His God is not addressed as Father as in the previous request "Father, forgive them ...".
The prayers of this One were and still are tremendously powerful. His prayer is so strong as to effect all time and eternity. And in order for the Father to answer that petition for sinners and answer it in a righteous manner the Father caused the man Jesus to be the object of the Father's divine judgment upon sin THAT WE MAY be forgiven.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. To man it seems as free forgiveness. To God there is no such thing. There is the forgiveness of debt because the dept is PAID. And at that moment and time from the ninth hour in which the Son cries that He has been forsaken by His God, God caused our sins to be judged upon Jesus Christ.
The earthquake from the ninth hour is not of man.
The darkening of the sun around the world, was not of man.
The tearing of the separating curtain dividing the holy of holies from the holy place in the temple, a tearing from the TOP down to the BOTTOM, was not of man.
From the ninth hour something out of the hands of mankind was taking place. And at that time Christ bore in His body the sins of the world that we, if we believe into Him, would be forgiven.
It is my opinion that the words "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing" may reflect that man does not realize that every and all of his sins are ultimately against God Himself. We only think, if we happen to be convicted of sin, that our crimes are against only other fellow humans or other creatures.
" ... they do not know what they are doing" may indicate that the Son of God realized as no other, that sin is always and everytime directly an affront to God Himself. It most certainly must mean that the murder and torture that His persecutors inflicrted on Him were against God Himself since He was God / Man - the Son of God.
Anyway, God GAVE His only begotten Son. In being given the Son was willing to pass throught the murder and torture of man's rejection and discarding of the One given by God.
More so, He was willing to, by the foreknowledge and predetermined counsel of the Triune God, to bear the forsaking of the Father in its own perculiar torment, as one carrying up as it were all the sins of those for whom He petitions for, the whole world.
I do not suspect that this will be accepted by the skeptics here. I do not assume that such a profound matter as Christ's redemption is nearly exhaustively explained in this little Internet post when 2,000 some years of discussion on the matter have ensued by better minds than mine.
I offer this that may help some. We are commanded in the NT to believe. And we are told to believe in Christ. It does not command that only if we can explain redemption or even understand redemption, we shall be saved, Rather the apostolic instruction is to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God has raised Him from the dead. In doing so we shall be saved, because we BELIEVE in the Person of the resurrected Lord Jesus.
We should seek to understand redemption of course. But the instruction of the Apostle is to confess as Lord and believe in the heart that God has raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. Doing so we are assured that we shall be saved.
Originally posted by jaywillHope you don't mind but I would like to make one correction to your post.
This reply is placed beneath googlefudge's. It is mainly for those who following along who may have an open mind about the subject.
[quote] It was a parody of the Christian religion, not a 'how to' manual on how to beat theists.
It was mocking the basic foundation of the religion by rephrasing it in obviously ridiculous terms,
and it never ...[text shortened]... o not know what they are doing."[/b]
I am not finished yet.[/b]
It was NOT 33 and 1/2 years. It was exactly 35 years.
Originally posted by RJHindsWhen I wrote that, I knew that you would probably notice and object.
Hope you don't mind but I would like to make one correction to your post.
It was NOT 33 and 1/2 years. It was exactly 35 years.
It is a side matter that someday we may talk about.
Right now my burden is to correct the lampooning parody that Christ's redemption is that God murdered and tortured His Son.
God gave an absolute One, the Son. And in His utter obedience He suffered the cross of man's murder and torture.
In His petition that the criminals be forgiven, God caused Him to be the means by which forgiveness could be obtained for all mankind, in that He counted the forsaking of the Son to be the condemning of man's sin.
My post are long. Many do not read them through. I take this opportunity in replying to your objection about dates, to briefly summarize.
Sorry.
Originally posted by jaywillI believe they know better than that. It is just their way of strongly
When I wrote that, I knew that you would probably notice and object.
It is a side matter that someday we may talk about.
Right now my burden is to correct the lampooning parody that Christ's redemption is that God murdered and tortured His Son.
God gave an absolute One, the Son. And in His utter obedience He suffered the cross of man's murder a ...[text shortened]... this opportunity in replying to your objection about dates, to briefly summarize.
Sorry.
objecting to the idea of God, the God of the Holy Bible. They say
"murder" and "torture" to be antagonistic. You were right to correct
them, however, they are not going to admit you are right. So you
might as well leave it there and perhaps one day they can understand
the truth and will admit it.
Further comments on this spoof cartoon:
Notice that the strawman Christian evangelist starts out his preaching of the gospel by condemning the listener for wearing a certain kind of shoes.
Not all preachers of the Gospel begin their evangelism by pointing out some specific trivial or even non-trivial fault of the listener. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. It is not at all necessary for the disciples to introduce Jesus Christ by FIRST pointing out some wrong doing of the listener.
Many times people are doing evil things because they are so hungry for life. They are so thirsty for enjoyment. This thirst drives them into doing sinful things. By far, not every Gospel announcer starts his conversation off by drawing the listener's attention to some sin.
It is enough to draw attention to Person of Jesus Christ and His own words. We do not need to delve intrusively into the private affairs of the listener. God knows his life. God knows his history. Only in time the Holy Spirit will convict that sinner of his need for forgiveness.
We evangelists, by far, did not always initiat a Gospel conversation by comdemning one who we are no better than.
Some people perceive that this is the normal way to get the Gospel message. They may feel that they are so perfect, you see, that no one should make them feel bad. Many times we simply began to talk of Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection for the sinner's salvation. More often it is up to the Holy Spirit to apply the specifics of where their particular transgressions are.
Jesus came to the woman at the well in John 4 and talked mostly about her thirst. Every sinner is a thirsty person seeking enjoyment in life. Christ presents Himself as one giving the enjoyment of "living water" . To be reconciled to God and partake of His Holy Spirit is a greater enjoyment, a deeper enjoyment, a more lasting and even eternal enjoyment.
"Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall THIRST AGAIN, But the whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water gushing up into eternal life." (John 4:14)
The FOCUS of Christ's gospel to this woman is her need for SATISFACTION. She had five husbands because she was so very thirsty. She so LONGED for satisfaction that the thirst was never quenched as she went through husband after husband. Perhaps she was a very beautiful woman like the actress Elizabeth Taylor who had eight marriages.
Anyway, the lampooning parody seeks to portray the Gospel preacher as starting out his conversation by specifically pointing out some supposed personal wrong doing. Of course it is the comedian's intention to choose the most frivolous thing to cause the preacher to appear the most picky and trivial.
Its a over generalization. Many of us Christians do not start out encounters with unbelievers by intrusively pointing out personal faults to make a backround upon which they can appreciate Christ's salvation. We simply begin by drawing people's attention to the glorious Son of God. We don't care about their personal sins. The Holy Spirit who knows us all as a open book is sufficient to apply gradually the specifics of each man's need for God's forgiveness.
Further comments on the cartoon spoof on Gospel preaching.
The beautiful music comes in as the supposed gospel recipient is told of how the president of the country murdered his son.
Now no doubt there is an emotional appeal of the message that Christ so loved the sinner that He died for the sinner. But this little parody underplays the legal contractual power of the plan of salvation. God is obligated to forgive the one who trusts in Christ. The sinners TEARS do not help that. The sinner's SORROW, or being TOUCHED or being MOVED do not help that.
Of course there is the emotional aspect of thanksgiving. But the real power of the Gospel's assurance rests on God's righteous faithfulness.
"If we confess our sins, He [God] is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)
I would draw attention to the second word here of God's attributes - "He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS ... to forgive us our sins."
Here it is not that God is faithful and merciful (though He is merciful).
John underlines not God's kindness, mercy, big heartedness, benovolence to touch our emotional consideration. At least in this passage John touches the legality of the matter. Whether God loves you or doesn't He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive the one for Christ's sake.
" God would not have His claim on TWO, both on His Son our surety true, and then upon me laid" .. I believe it was John Wesley who wrote that hymn line.
God would not have His righteous claim upon two. If we believe into Christ, whether God likes me or decides He doesn't like me He is faithful and righteous to forgive me. He is bound by His righteous nature and bound by His faithful nature. Righteousness is the foundation of His throne. As He has judged sin in Christ and promised that all believing in Christ partake of substition, He is faithful and righteous to that.
This may call for an emotional response from the sinner's heart. But it also may not. It is legal. If today I decide my heart is not so moved, or if (as is impossible) God decides on a particular day maybe He doesn't love you so much, He is RIGHTEOUS to forgive.
Are you touched in your heart ?
Are you moved and hear beautiful music in the backround??
Well, that's not bad.
But if your heart is not so moved with emotion, consider the legal aspect of it. Whether you sob emotionally or you don't, God is faithful and righteously bound to not only forgive your sins but to forget your sins. They have been judged in Christ's redemptive act.
Bottom line - the Gospel does move one to love. But the initial demand is not whosoever is moved with emotional sentiment. It is to whosoever BELIEVES in Jesus Christ.
In fact, it is not the salvation is not to whosever understands the plan of redemption. Paul says if you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart this Lord Jesus was raised from the dead, you shall be saved. You may or may not understand the plan of redemption. You do not have to understand the plan of redemption in order to be saved. What is called for is that you believe Jesus is Lord and is alive from the dead due to God's raising Him.
Believing into the available and living Christ who is a present sphere and realm, a living Person, you shall be saved.
Further comments on the cartoon spoof on Gospel preaching.
In the lampoon the supposed Gospel preacher explains that the president of the country has murdered his son.
I do not understand the plan of salvation as involving three parties -
1.) needy sinners
2.) a kind living son
3.) a mean, strict, father.
This is how some people understand the Gospel. God is the mean one. And a kind innocent one, his son, interfers so as to prevent the mean one from being mean to the third party, sinners.
Now, while I don't think this is a very good presentation of the gospel, the Holy Spirit can still use a poor presentation to cause people to become believers and be saved.
HEAVEN help us if that was not true. God can touch a man to receive Christ even if the presentation of the truth is not very good.
But I see TWO parties involved rather than three. The two parties are the Triune God and man.
Rather than the innocent son standing between the mean God and the guilty man, I see a more accurate representation of God doing something in His being to enact redemption / salvation.
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" ( 2 COR. 5:19)
The Triune God as Christ and in Christ, on Calvary, was reconciling the world to Himself. That is really two parties. God and the world.
A picture is worth a thousand words. What is the final picture we see in the highly symbolic revelation of the New Jerusalem in end of the Bible ?
We see the throne [singular] of God and the Lamb (emphasizing redemption) - the Redeeming God/Man. The Lamb is the Redeemer. Within the Redeemer is God as the Light. For the Lamb is the L-A-M-P, "the lamp"
The Lamb = the lamp. Within the Lamb/lamp is God as the shining light. Right here -
"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)
" ... its LAMP ... is the LAMB" .
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
The ONE throne is of God and the Lamb for God is incarnate in the Redeemer God-man. "And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (Rev. 22:1)
A picture is worth a thousand words. Or at least 882 words or so. God is IN Christ as the Light is within the Lamp. God is on the throne as God is in the Lamb upon the throne.
Out of the throne pours the Spirit through the middle of the ONE street of the city. The way God rules and reigns in eternity is by the dispensing of His Spirit with His life and nature INTO man. The pouring out point of this dispensing is the seat of His authority - the throne.
God administers His kingdom by dispensing Himself into man's being.
NO arguments today beloved !! At least not until after 10:30.
The PICTURE shows the Triune God reigning by dispensing. The Father is God. The Son is the Redeemer. The Holy Spirit is the water of life pouring out of the throne of God and the Lamb down through the one street.
Man walks in God. Man walks in the divine nature being poured out of the seat of God's administration into man. The way the street goes is the way the water of life flows.
Look at the picture again.
"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, PROCEEDING OUT OF THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB in the MIDDLE of its street." (my emphasis)
The picture shows the Triune God - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The picture shows the Triune God dispensing something out of Himself into the city. Man in the city walks on the way which goes along the same way as this flowing river of water of life.
The picture simply means that what Jesus Christ is, saved man becomes, only not in His Godhead. He walks in God's nature. He communicates with one another in God's nature. The street is the place of living and communication.
God administrates by dispensing His life and nature into man that man may walk in God's life.
This life of God is pouring from the throne of God. God's administration is through His dispensing Himself into man. This is how Jesus lived exactly.
"As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so He who eats Me shall also live because of Me." (John 6:57)
I have been crucified with Christ !!
The following wonderful reading from The Normal Christian Life by W. Nee expresses great practical explanation of our co-death with Christ as Christians.
Here is how we can realize the terminating aspect of Christ's death, to reckon ourselves to have been crucified with Him.
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