Originally posted by googlefudgeIt is God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit that we Christians believe in.
I would listen to what Daniel Dennett actually said and not what WLC distorted it into.
Incidentally the debate you linked between Sam Harris and WLC, I have watched (almost)
all of it and contrary to what you may believe Sam Harris is kicking WLC's ass all over the
podium.
I assume that is not how you see it.
My point about up to date sci ...[text shortened]... e number of people who do abandon logic and science so they can believe in
god/s.
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Originally posted by karoly aczel"There is no truth spoken in words."
If I told you that 'so and so' book was the word of truth then would you call that the truth?
There is no truth as spoken in words.
I could drop a rock on my foot and it would be true, but as soon as I put that into words, it becomes an opinion.
This is a self contradictory statement.
This is like me saying "There are no sentences in English over four words long."
The truth that the New Testament speaks of is quite often to be understood as a LIVING PERSON. It is a PERSON and the experience of that Person's availability that is the truth.
"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" is accompanied with "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed."
Here the truth is a Person. He is an unusual Person. But He is an available Person.
"The truth is in Jesus" writes the Apostle Paul in Eph. 4:21. Or the Recovery Version translates "the reality is in Jesus".
Here the truth is to have a subjective accesss to an unusual supernatural Person who is available.
"The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is also called "the Spirit of truth" or as sometimes translated "the Spirit of reality".
The Lord among His disciples, standing there, says "I am the was and the truth and the life.". His living Person, Himself, He says, is the way and the truth. He is a living Person and therefore a living truth - Truth here is a PERSON.
Since He became a life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) this unusual Person is now "the Spirit of truth" or the Spirit of reality. And we still say "the truth is in Jesus".
Now the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit is rather abstract. But the WORD is something like a solid handle one can put his hands on, so to speak. So we can receive the Person, the unusual supernatural Person of Christ by mean of receiving His words, or the word of the Bible.
"The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life."
We can lay hold of truth, we can lay hold of the reality by opening our mind, emotion, will, and most importantly our conscience, to the word of Christ. Receiving His words will result in us receiving Himself in His pneumatic form as "life giving Spirit" .
The truth - a Living Person.
"You shall know the truth [a living resurrected available here and now Jesus as pneumatic life givng Spirit] and the truth shall set you free."
Now how can one really put this into practice ?
One can open the heart and pray something like this:
" Lord Jesus, I receive Your words. I receive that Your blood cleanses me from all my sins. I receive Your promise to set me free. I receive You as the truth. And on faith I simply THANK YOU Lord Jesus. I receive Your words. And I thank you even for the faith to do so. Lord I accept You as the truth, as the way, and mostly as the LIFE. According to Your own word, Lord Jesus, You are the WAY the Truth and the Life. Amen. So be it."
This is not brute will power. This is one half of the experience which consists of TWO halfs.
1.) our faith plus
2.) Christ's FAITHFUL-NESS.
Our faith + God's FAITHFULNESS = the realilty, the truth that sets us free.
Do not compain. We were told this by one who pioneered this experience many years agp, the Apostle Paul.
"I believe, therefore I have spoken. We also believe and therefore speak."
I AIN'T FINISHED YET !!
Look, the Psalmist said that he loved God because GOD HEARD HIS ...VOICE.
"I love Jehovah because He hears My voice, my supplications, Because He inclines His ear to me;
THEREFORE I will call upon [Him all] the days of my life." (Psalm 116:1,2)
I spent a lot of time meditating, thinking, arguing, musing, pondering, mulling it over in my head. Then one day I discovered the Lord hears my voice. He is PRACTICAL. How wonderful, the Psalmist says. This is still good today.
"I love Jehovah because He hears my voice, my SUPPLICATION ..."
Latter the Psalmist says that his due to God is simply to CALL upon the name of God all the days of his life. And he says this is like DRINKING down salvation in a CUP !!
Don't argue now. Look, in the very same Psalm 116.
"What shall I return to Jehovah for all His benefits toward me ?
I will take up the cup of salvation and call upon the name of the Jehovah." (Psalm 116:12,13)
So I called "O Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus. LORD JESUS, I drink of You. I lift up the CUP of SALVATION and call O LORD JESUS. LORD JESUS."
Okay, you can argue now. But someone should really try this. The Lord HEARS YOUR VOICE.
Now I know some will say "But I don't need to make a commotion." OK, you don't need to make a commotion. I agree. But you do need to mean business.
Look, if you were in a burning house would you CRY OUT "FIRE! FIRE!" with your MOUTH ? Or would you just sit there meditating in your mind "Hmmm, fire, fire" ?
Calling out with your mouth helps you to MEAN BUSINESS with your whole heart. "If you confess with your mouth, Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."
So sometimes, at least, you need to go against your passive self, and cry out aloud - [b]"Oooo LORD JESUS. LORD JESUS. LORD JESUS I love you because you hear my VOICE."
Amen.
(on the third day He was raised from the dead)
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Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Maybe Harrris thinks that the ultimate reality of God is something we should smell or see or otherwise get with our five physical senses.
Not likely, since Harris is an atheist and probably thinks the "ultimate reality of God" has no referent.
Here is the sheer arrogance of the New Atheists. They assume that no one with faith in God could response. Have you read any other works by Harris, such as The Moral Landscape?
Have you read any other works by Harris, such as The Moral Landscape?[/b]
No. I have not yet read The Moral Landscape. But I have been listening to a lot of Sam Harris lately. And I get more of a sense of his thoughts.
I would like to get the book and read it after I finish Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster ? Making Sense of the Old Testament God . Give me to the end of Febuary or middle of March.
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Originally posted by jaywillMan, I'm not going to read all that.
"There is no truth spoken in words."
This is a self contradictory statement.
This is like me saying "There are no sentences in English over four words long."
The [b]truth that the New Testament speaks of is quite often to be understood as a LIVING PERSON. It is a PERSON and the experience of that Person's availability that is the truth.
rd day He was raised from the dead)[/b]
I'll just say that you may be in a smoking house and cry "Fire,Fire!!" and it turns out there was no fire, only smoke.
Sorry man, i should be reading it all but after having gone back and read some more...well I just dont want a headache.
Sounds like you are trying to convert someone ... I hope its not me cause you are wasting your talent if it is.
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Originally posted by karoly aczelI think what Jaywill is trying to say is that Christianity is ultimately based upon a personal relationship with Christ, not just a bunch of abstract spiritual truths.
Man, I'm not going to read all that.
I'll just say that you may be in a smoking house and cry "Fire,Fire!!" and it turns out there was no fire, only smoke.
Sorry man, i should be reading it all but after having gone back and read some more...well I just dont want a headache.
Sounds like you are trying to convert someone ... I hope its not me cause you are wasting your talent if it is.
So in a sense, I think he actually agrees with you that ultimate truth can't really be reduced to words. It has to be directly experienced. Just like talking about how you dropped a rock on your foot is very different from actually dropping a rock on your foot.
Originally posted by Melanerpes
I think what Jaywill is trying to say is that Christianity is ultimately based upon a personal relationship with Christ, not just a bunch of abstract spiritual truths.
So in a sense, I think he actually agrees with you that ultimate truth can't really be reduced to words. It has to be directly experienced. Just like talking about how you dropped a rock on your foot is very different from actually dropping a rock on your foot.
I think what Jaywill is trying to say is that Christianity is ultimately based upon a personal relationship with Christ, not just a bunch of abstract spiritual truths.
Well put.
"TASTE ... and see that the Lord is good"
I write that way because you never know when someone will read and actually try to TASTE by calling on the Lord Jesus. I would not write that way except I know that God is SO WILLING, SO WILLING to come into a person's heart.
He takes no delight in you being perplexed and in the dark. Look at the parable of the prodigal son. The father came running, running with a heart bursting with love, to meet the son coming home.
Luke 16:11-32
In the ancient Near East it was undignified for an elderly man to run. He would always walk with calm dignity. But in this parable Jesus says the father longing for his son to return came running to meet him.
So in a sense, I think he actually agrees with you that ultimate truth can't really be reduced to words. It has to be directly experienced. Just like talking about how you dropped a rock on your foot is very different from actually dropping a rock on your foot.
You are right on. I was agreeing somewhat with the poster.
I know that people will read and scoff. But if I write and get on my knees and ask God to open some seeker's heart, what happened to me may well happen to another.
That is the TASTE and SEE that the Lord is good.
You may discribe the chemical components of a ham sandwich for a month. You can be an expert in all the chemicals and molecules, or so you think. But if you are on an island and starving, you will not be saved until you EAT the sandwich.
We have to TAKE the Spirit of Jesus Christ into our innermost being to be born again. I write that way because I know that God is SO VERY WILLING.
Originally posted by jaywillHe doesn't care about none of this. The idea is to eliminate the lie. Since
"There is no truth spoken in words."
This is a self contradictory statement.
This is like me saying "There are no sentences in English over four words long."
The [b]truth that the New Testament speaks of is quite often to be understood as a LIVING PERSON. It is a PERSON and the experience of that Person's availability that is the truth. ...[text shortened]... rd day He was raised from the dead)[/b]
everything one says, according to him, is just an opinion, nobody can lie
or tell the truth. So he does not lie and you do not tell the truth, according
to that way of thinking. Of course, what I am saying is not the truth
either for anything I say is just my opinion, according to him. Of course
this too is just his opinion. So as a result what you say is of no importance
because it is just your opinion. So you might as well address your sermons
to someone else who might give a rat's ass. That is my opinion of what he
is saying.
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- 31 May 06
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Originally posted by RJHindsNo you posted something entirely irrelevant.
Just correcting your post.
You didn't correct anything, there was no mistake in my post to correct.
Read it again and notice I don't mention Christians or Christianity anywhere in the post.
I talk about theists, in general, and thus spoke of belief in god or gods as I was being
deliberately non-specific about what kind of theists I was talking about.
Thus you responding by posting which particular trio of gods Christian (allegedly mono-theistic)
theists believe in is irrelevant, particularly as I and everyone else here already know it, and is
certainly not correcting anything I said in my post as I was talking about theists not Christians.
So I go back to...
And?
This is relevant to what I said because?
You think I don't know this?
You want to solidify your position as creationist spam-bot?
Only rhetorically this time.
Originally posted by MelanerpesYes, I always go on about personal experience being the cornerstone of spirituality.
I think what Jaywill is trying to say is that Christianity is ultimately based upon a personal relationship with Christ, not just a bunch of abstract spiritual truths.
So in a sense, I think he actually agrees with you that ultimate truth can't really be reduced to words. It has to be directly experienced. Just like talking about how you dropped a rock on your foot is very different from actually dropping a rock on your foot.
Some always take that and turn it into me saying it is based on "abstract spiritual truths".
I can see the difference between what jaywill says about christianity as opposed to some others, but a lot of christians on here are ready to jump on me and say they heard it all before because I am parading around a bunch a new age hogwash.
I just say it as I see it and one should not take the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself
Originally posted by karoly aczelPeople who think they have some kind of personal relationship with invisible beings are in serious psychological trouble. The sooner they realize that (an unlikely event, to be sure) the sooner they will step into the light of sanity.
Yes, I always go on about personal experience being the cornerstone of spirituality.
Some always take that and turn it into me saying it is based on "abstract spiritual truths".
I can see the difference between what jaywill says about christianity as opposed to some others, but a lot of christians on here are ready to jump on me and say they heard ...[text shortened]... say it as I see it and one should not take the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself
Originally posted by sonhouseBut more of the universe is invisible than visible.
People who think they have some kind of personal relationship with invisible beings are in serious psychological trouble. The sooner they realize that (an unlikely event, to be sure) the sooner they will step into the light of sanity.
Originally posted by sonhouseI know of plenty of perfectly sane rational people with loving families,etc. who have r'ships with so-called invisible things.
People who think they have some kind of personal relationship with invisible beings are in serious psychological trouble. The sooner they realize that (an unlikely event, to be sure) the sooner they will step into the light of sanity.
I think its normal, sane even.
Look at me , I'm soooo boring you wouldn't even buy me a drink at a bar.