1. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 07:25
    Some people have quoted the words of Christ in Matthew 25 and have come to the conclusion that only works can save you. These people ignore countless other words that Christ speaks about the Kindom of Heaven.

    Matthew 5:3 - Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 18:3 - And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 23:13 - But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


    Finally, James sheads light on the issue:

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
  2. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jun '05 07:48
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Some people have quoted the words of Christ in Matthew 25 and have come to the conclusion that only works can save you. These people ignore countless other words that Christ speaks about the Kindom of Heaven.

    Matthew 5:3 - Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for ri ...[text shortened]... also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Now go back and read Matthew 25 ... and then post the parts at the end that's about judgment day.
  3. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 07:51
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    Now go back and read Matthew 25 ... and then post the parts at the end that's about judgment day.
    Now go back and read the verses I have given you in the first post and see them in context with Matthew 25.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jun '05 08:00
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Some people have quoted the words of Christ in Matthew 25 and have come to the conclusion that only works can save you. These people ignore countless other words that Christ speaks about the Kindom of Heaven.

    Matthew 5:3 - Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for ri ...[text shortened]... also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    None of these passages change the plain meaning of Matthew 25. First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus SPECIFICALLY talking about Judgment Day and what the criteria will be for eternal salvation. NOWHERE else in the Scriptures are Jesus' words regarding Judgment Day. Thus, his words there are more on point than vague generalities in other parts of the Gospels.

    Second, the passages are in complete harmony with Matthew 25. Read the entire Sermon on the MOunt, esp. these words dj2becker:

    Matthew 5:16 16 Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

    See your what there, Sparky? Matthew 5:20 is also on point; you and your fundie cult brethren are akin to the Pharisees, praying loudly and claiming you are righteous, while ignoring the fate of your fellow man.

    Matthew 7:21: What is the will of Jesus' Father? What he says in Matthew 25:31-46 to act charitably and mercifully toward your fellow man.

    Finally, James says "I will shew thee my faith by my works". Figure it out, dj2becker; shouting your saved isn't showing your faith; acting with love and mercy towards your fellow man, the core message of the Gospels, is. If you are going to be a Christian, son, accept the message of Jesus.
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jun '05 08:01
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Now go back and read the verses I have given you in the first post and see them in context with Matthew 25.
    Keep fighting the word of the Kingdom.

    Mark 16 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall
    not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
    recover.
    Can you dj?

    Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so
    shall it be in the end of this world.

    now read Matthew 25

  6. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 08:04
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    None of these passages change the plain meaning of Matthew 25. First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is Jesus SPECIFICALLY talking about Judgment Day and what the criteria will be for eternal salvation. NOWHERE else in the Scriptures are Jesus' words regarding Judgment Day. Thus, his words there are more on point than vague generalities in other parts ...[text shortened]... essage of the Gospels, is. If you are going to be a Christian, son, accept the message of Jesus.
    All I am saying is that Works without faith is not compatible.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jun '05 08:111 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    All I am saying is that Works without faith is not compatible.
    I think that it is a reasonable position that both faith and manifesting it in works i.e. acts of mercy and charity towards your fellow man are necessary for salvation based on an overall reading of the Gospels. The position I have generally criticized is the extreme one of Darfius and RBHILL that works are of no importance at all and that mere faith, without more, is sufficient to ensure eternal salvation. I think that view is absurd based of even a cursory reading of the Gospels.
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 08:26
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I think that it is a reasonable position that both faith and manifesting it in works i.e. acts of mercy and charity towards your fellow man are necessary for salvation based on an overall reading of the Gospels. The position I have generally criticized is the extreme one of Darfius and RBHILL that works are of no importance at all and that mere ...[text shortened]... eternal salvation. I think that view is absurd based of even a cursory reading of the Gospels.
    Faith without works is dead, as is works without faith.

    Then we are agreed.
    This doesn't happen very often😉
  9. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jun '05 08:36
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Faith without works is dead, as is works without faith.

    Then we are agreed.
    This doesn't happen very often😉
    But we aren't agreed.
    25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
    angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 25:32
    And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
    them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the
    goats: 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the
    goats on the left.
    25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
    blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the
    foundation of the world: 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me
    meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye
    took me in: 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me

    that dj defines the righteous

    25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
    thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    not word one about faith or belief
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jun '05 08:50
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Faith without works is dead, as is works without faith.

    Then we are agreed.
    This doesn't happen very often😉
    I said it was a reasonable position, but not the only reasonable position. There are parts of the Gospels that seem to indicate that faith is a requirement, but Matthew 25 isn't one of them. The question that needs to be answered is why Jesus omitted mention of faith in Matthew 25 when specifically spelling out the requirements for salvation. I still await a reasonable response to that question.
  11. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 09:19
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I said it was a reasonable position, but not the only reasonable position. There are parts of the Gospels that seem to indicate that faith is a requirement, but Matthew 25 isn't one of them. The question that needs to be answered is why Jesus omitted mention of faith in Matthew 25 when specifically spelling out the requirements for salvation. I still await a reasonable response to that question.
    Matthew 25 is a parable. Jesus usualy focused on one issue at a time when he used a parable. In Matthew 25 Jesus was trying to show the Jews they were not the elect simply because they were Jews. He used the characteristic of righteousness which is revealed by good works as a distinguishing characteristic. Not once in Matthew 25 does he say the faith is not neccessary.

    Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

    Jesus also says in Matthew 5: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

    Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

    There are countless other passages were Christ speaks specifically of faith. Take for example the thief on the cross. What good works had he commited? Yet Christ said to him because of his faith, "Today you shall be with me in paradise".
  12. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    08 Jun '05 10:171 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Matthew 25 is a parable. Jesus usualy focused on one issue at a time when he used a parable. In Matthew 25 Jesus was trying to show the Jews they were not the elect simply because they were Jews. He used the characteristic of righteousnes ...[text shortened]... because of his faith, "Today you shall be with me in paradise".
    It says exactly who the Righteous are and who the damned are. You are making a mockery out of Christ's words.
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 10:29
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    It says exactly who the Righteous are and who the damned are. You are making a mockery out of Christ's words.
    Does it say that the righteous had no faith?
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jun '05 16:27
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Matthew 25 is a parable. Jesus usualy focused on one issue at a time when he used a parable. In Matthew 25 Jesus was trying to show the Jews they were not the elect simply because they were Jews. He used the characteristic of righteousness which is revealed by good works as a distinguishing characteristic. Not once in Matthew 25 does he say the faith is no ...[text shortened]... mmited? Yet Christ said to him because of his faith, "Today you shall be with me in paradise".
    Matthew 25:31-46 is certainly not a parable; earlier in the chapter there are two parables reinforcing the message of Jesus' description of Judgment Day. You are obviously relying on fundie crinb notes and not thinking it through yourself. And the "He didn't say it wasn't" BS you constantly throw is absurd; the words of Jesus on Judgment Day are explicit on the requirements of salvation - 16 verses is one of the longest passages in Matthew - he doesn't mention a lot of things that aren't necessary; he's saying what is necessary, not making a list of everything else that isn't necessary. I still await a reasonable explanation.
  15. Standard memberdj2becker
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    08 Jun '05 16:50
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Matthew 25:31-46 is certainly not a parable; earlier in the chapter there are two parables reinforcing the message of Jesus' description of Judgment Day. You are obviously relying on fundie crinb notes and not thinking it through yourself. And the "He didn't say it wasn't" BS you constantly throw is absurd; the words of Jesus on Judgment Day ...[text shortened]... making a list of everything else that isn't necessary. I still await a reasonable explanation.
    Before I respond to your question, I have a question for you:

    Did the thief on the cross do any good works?
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