Faith and Works

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I think Jesus was describing a necessary condition for salvation in Mt 25, but I don't think he was describing the sufficient conditions.

LH, I know that is the argument and I'm perfectly aware of the "necessary-sufficient" distinction (use it all the time), but I'm asking why faith is omitted from his description of the requirements of salvation when Jesus specifically speaks about Judgment Day. Perhaps this question is more addressed to those who believe that ALL Christian spiritual truth MUST be explicitly spelled out in Scripture, then to members of the RCC who rely on traditional teachings as well.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Is St Thomas in the Bible?

You're a bit of a hypocrite to accuse frogstomp of not answering a question, which he actually did, and then refusing to answer a question. St. Thomas Aquinas is not in the Bible, but Jesus' teachings that we should do acts of kindness and mercy towards our fellow man is a (or THE) central point of the Gospels. So which of the acts of mercy that St. Thomas Aquinas identified do you think Jesus would have said were not an act of mercy?

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_9.htm


"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. … For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. (16.24-27)"

My wife Marilyn and I recently returned from our first pilgrimage to the Holy land. It was a blessed experience, and there is much I would love to tell you. But there was one particular incident that sticks out in my mind which clearly emphasizes this point.

We were at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, an ancient Byzantine church, the oldest surviving church in Israel, built over the cave where from antiquity it is believed Jesus was born. To get down to the spot marked with a star one must walk bent over through a stone tunnel, one at a time, into the ancient cave.

While we were there waiting in line, there were over two hundred other Christian pilgrims from all over the world, representing many languages, cultures, customs, and sects, all trying anxiously to get into the tunnel. There was so much excitement about touching the very place where Christ was supposedly born, that people began shoving and cutting into line. Some began yelling back and forth—maybe even cursing, though I couldn’t understand their languages.

At one point a priest of another Christian tradition became so angry that his particular pilgrims weren’t able to "cut in line" that he began pushing through the crowd ordering everyone to make way for his people. But he was quickly shouted down by those in front until he gave up and his group was ordered by the guards to go to the end of the line. All of this just to see the sight where Our Savior—the gift of God’s love—was born! Had we forgotten why Jesus had come? Where were our hearts?

When I listen to two Christians arguing over whether we our saved by "FaithAlone" or by "Faith and works," I also wonder whether we have forgotten:

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another (John 13.35)."


http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_9.htm

Originally posted by ivanhoe
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_9.htm


"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. … For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay eve ...[text shortened]... e another (John 13.35)."


http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_9.htm

This discussion is about does Christ mean what he says in Matthew 25 about His judgment. It's very clear to me, but then I don't begin with a preconcieved notion that I'm already "saved" or that one person is more important to Christ than anyone else, regardless of their beliefs.

Originally posted by frogstomp
This discussion is about does Christ mean what he says in Matthew 25 about His judgment. It's very clear to me, but then I don't begin with a preconcieved notion that I'm already "saved" or that one person is more important to Christ than anyone else, regardless of their beliefs.

3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. (Lk 15)

Just reminded of this by your post. 🙂

Originally posted by lucifershammer
3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice wit ...[text shortened]... ghteous persons who do not need to repent. (Lk 15)

Just reminded of this by your post. 🙂

Maybe the "we are all sinners" fundies can explain the language of this passage as well esp. the last sentence.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Maybe the "we are all sinners" fundies can explain the language of this passage as well esp. the last sentence.

I am more interested in your explanation.

Originally posted by frogstomp
This discussion is about does Christ mean what he says in Matthew 25 about His judgment. It's very clear to me, but then I don't begin with a preconcieved notion that I'm already "saved" or that one person is more important to Christ than anyone else, regardless of their beliefs.

Neither do I have preconceived . What I learn from scripture is not to take salvation for granted, and Christ does save anyone because of their relative importance or self-serving efforts. Matthew 25 clearly shows that those who he chooses to save will be credited far beyond they could merit.

Originally posted by Coletti
Neither do I have preconceived . What I learn from scripture is not to take salvation for granted, and Christ does save anyone because of their relative importance or self-serving efforts. Matthew 25 clearly shows that those who he chooses to save will be credited far beyond they could merit.

That is an absolutely ridiculous interpretation.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

I am more interested in your explanation.

Yes, Ivanhoe, I'm perfectly aware you don't have the moral courage to confront the Fundamentalists on this site who say your Church is dooming millions of people to Hell and would prefer to continue some silly personal vendetta. There's nothing in the passage that contradicts anything I say and it's meaning is pretty clear, so why would you need my explanation? They say we're all evil sinners, yet this passage says the righteous exist and do not need to repent in direct contradiction to their twisted belief system. So they need to explain it, not me.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're a bit of a hypocrite to accuse frogstomp of not answering a question, which he actually did, and then refusing to answer a question. St. Thomas Aquinas is not in the Bible, but Jesus' teachings that we should do acts of kindness and mercy towards our fellow man is a (or THE) central point of the Gospels. So which of the acts of mercy that St. Thomas Aquinas identified do you think Jesus would have said were not an act of mercy?

Are you saying that you don't need any faith to believe Matthew 25 is the truth or at least the only way of getting saved?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Are you saying that you don't need any faith to believe Matthew 25 is the truth or at least the only way of getting saved?

Why don't you ever answer a question, dj2becker? Can't find the answer in one of your usual cut and paste sites? Afraid to try to do some independent thought of your own?

I don't need any faith to interpret what Scriptural passages mean; I do not accept the "Secret Decoder Ring Defense". Matthew 25 doesn't say you have to believe in Matthew 25 to be saved; it merely says you have to do certain acts to be saved and the absence of performing those acts will get you damned. Whether you believe it or not doesn't seem to be relevant at least in Matthew 25:31-46.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Why don't you ever answer a question, dj2becker? Can't find the answer in one of your usual cut and paste sites? Afraid to try to do some independent thought of your own?

I don't need any faith to interpret what Scriptural passages mean; I do not accept the "Secret Decoder Ring Defense". Matthew 25 doesn't say you have to belie ...[text shortened]... damned. Whether you believe it or not doesn't seem to be relevant at least in Matthew 25:31-46.

If you believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is the Alpha and Omega of scripture then I am afraid it will be of no use for me to continue debating you.

I try to look at the Bible as a whole. I don't think it is usefull just to take one piece of scripture and base my entire foundation for salvation on it. If you disagree with me on this point then we shall have to agree to disagree. I find it totally useless to try and look at something through your glasses if I have a pair of my own. I hope you understand what I mean. If you are not willing to look at this from a wider perspective I am afraid we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by dj2becker
If you believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is the Alpha and Omega of scripture then I am afraid it will be of no use for me to continue debating you.

I try to look at the Bible as a whole. I don't think it is usefull just to take one piece of scripture and base my entire foundation for salvation on it. If you disagree with me on this point then we shall have ...[text shortened]... ng to look at this from a wider perspective I am afraid we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Certainly judgement day has an element of being the Omega, at least for mankind, which ,although it might bother you some , you are part of.

Christ came to earth as the Salvation of mankind, Christ delivered a message of salvation ,,Christ speaks the words in 25:31-46 (that all other words were leading setting up) . the end

epilogue ,,, the Apostles use their "faith" to do the miracles He had continually said they needed faith to perform to help them spread the word.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Certainly judgement day has an element of being the Omega, at least for mankind, which ,although it might bother you some , you are part of.

Christ came to earth as the Salvation of mankind, Christ delivered a message of salvation ,,Christ speaks the words in 25:31-46 (that all other words were leading setting up) . the end

epilogue ,,, the ...[text shortened]... He had continually said they needed faith to perform to help them spread the word.

I am afraid you misunderstood. I am saying that Matthew 25:31-46 is not Genisis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

In other words, building your hope of Salvation on Matthew 25:31-46 might just not do. Imagine God asks why you did not read the rest of the Bible. If Matthew 25:31-46 is all that is needed, then what is the rest of the Bible for?