1. Territories Unknown
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    11 May '10 16:09
    Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
  2. Standard memberDaemon Sin
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    11 May '10 16:26
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
    You've already answered your own question - choice.

    People choose what they want to believe in. Not everyone accepts your premise as a 'given' and forms a belief accordingly.
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    11 May '10 17:02
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
    If that were a "given", perhaps you'd have an argument. But it's far from a given, in my opinion.
  4. SubscriberProper Knob
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    11 May '10 17:14
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
    Given that the soul lives forever

    Is that a given?
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    11 May '10 17:42
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    [b]Given that the soul lives forever

    Is that a given?[/b]
    That's only half the given! Don't forget the other half:

    and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence
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    11 May '10 18:46
    I think the whole issue revovles around what is at the heart of our belief system.

    Here are some reasons to believe something that I have come up with.

    1. Undisputed facts (of course, this does not presume that because they are undisputed they are true, rather, it only means you have never had a reason to question them. It is only until someone questions something that we begin to question it ourselves, unless we are the ones to begin to question somthing that is not making sense with the current belief system)

    2. Human logic (We use our logic to try and determine which disputed facts most mirror what we conseider to be true. Of course, this is not 100% correct, but we do the best we can and we pat our selves on the back for being right "most of the time"....at least in our own minds. This trust in self is fueled with the knowledge that you have your own self interest at heart)

    3. Desire (We tend to believe what we want to believe. We then adopt a belief structure that mirrors own wants and desires and then defend that belief structure to the death. When we do this, I believe we know on some level that such beliefs are untrue but we also konw that defending such a belief system empowers us in some way. Therefore, we use the power of rationalization to carry on such belief structures.)

    4. Trust in other humans (We tend to look up towards certain people within our society, whether they be voices from the past or present. We see on some level their ability to accurately discern truth from untruth on a consistant basis and then rely on their judgement regarding matters that are not so transparent. This trust can also stem from our own human judgement that they care for us and, as a result, are not purposefully trying to decieve us. This is why even though they may have known short comings, by in large we are unphased in placing our trust in them.)

    5. Coercion (We do not wished to be shunned from what society believes, so we may adopt their belief systems. Its not that we have a desire to believe something, rather, it is simply a desire to be accepted so we may rationalize those questionable belief systems for self preservational reasons.)


    Can anyone else think of other reasons?
  7. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    11 May '10 18:52
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think the whole issue revovles around what is at the heart of our belief system.

    Here are some reasons to believe something that I have come up with.

    1. Undisputed facts (of course, this does not presume that because they are undisputed they are true, rather, it only means you have never had a reason to question them. It is only until someone questi ...[text shortened]... belief systems for self preservational reasons.)


    Can anyone else think of other reasons?
    6. Laziness. It is simply easier to swallow someone else's 'meaning of life' than to tackle the question oneself.
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    11 May '10 18:541 edit
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    6. Laziness. It is simply easier to swallow someone else's 'meaning of life' than to tackle the question oneself.
    So you contend that life has meaning? If so, what is your take?
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    11 May '10 18:58
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you contend that life has meaning? If so, what is your take?
    My investigations have not yet reached conclusion, thus I am unable as yet to conclude whether or not there is a meaning.
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    11 May '10 19:04
    Even if it were a given, I'd protest. If god came down, revealed himself to me and offered me eternal life, I'd say 'No thanks, I don't take blood money, subterfuge and threats kindly.
  11. Territories Unknown
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    11 May '10 20:09
    Originally posted by darvlay
    If that were a "given", perhaps you'd have an argument. But it's far from a given, in my opinion.
    There's no argument, really. The given in my OP is from the standpoint that "... assuming this to be so..."

    Even if it were not so, what sustains your unbelief, if belief simply entails acceptance of a gift and no more?
  12. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    11 May '10 20:14
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    There's no argument, really. The given in my OP is from the standpoint that "... assuming this to be so..."

    Even if it were not so, what sustains your unbelief, if belief simply entails acceptance of a gift and no more?
    It's not a gift though, is it? It's a bribe. Why make us and then bribe us? If he wants us to believe in him, let him make us.
  13. Territories Unknown
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    11 May '10 20:18
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    It's not a gift though, is it? It's a bribe. Why make us and then bribe us? If he wants us to believe in him, let him make us.
    Bribe? Sorry, I don't follow. Belief in Him isn't the issue, that is irrefutably a given without necessary assumption.

    Acceptance of the gift is the issue. Since there are no other parameters to salvation other than accepting the gift, why does an unbeliever persist?
  14. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    11 May '10 20:24
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Bribe? Sorry, I don't follow. Belief in Him isn't the issue, that is irrefutably a given without necessary assumption.

    Acceptance of the gift is the issue. Since there are no other parameters to salvation other than accepting the gift, why does an unbeliever persist?
    You say belief in him isn't the issue..?

    Let's go back to your OP then:

    Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?

    Are you not asking here why the unbeliever remains an unbeliever? Does that not mean that belief is the issue?
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    11 May '10 20:29
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    There's no argument, really. The given in my OP is from the standpoint that "... assuming this to be so..."

    Even if it were not so, what sustains your unbelief, if belief simply entails acceptance of a gift and no more?
    First, it is not the case that "belief simply entails acceptance of a gift and no more". Are you sure you even know what belief is? In fact, belief and acceptance can be quite different things. Are you sure you even know the difference?

    Second, why should I think the term 'gift' is relevant here? If the supposition is that I either accept X or else I will suffer horribly; how exactly is that anything like a gift scenario?
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