11 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatBelievers have often been described as such for those folks who have accepted the gift. No more, no less.
You say belief in him isn't the issue..?
Let's go back to your OP then:
Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, [b]what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
Are you not asking here why the unbeliever remains an unbeliever? Does that not mean that belief is the issue?[/b]
11 May 10
Originally posted by LemonJelloAre you sure you even know what belief is? In fact, belief and acceptance can be quite different things. Are you sure you even know the difference?
First, it is not the case that "belief simply entails acceptance of a gift and no more". Are you sure you even know what belief is? In fact, belief and acceptance can be quite different things. Are you sure you even know the difference?
Second, why should I think the term 'gift' is relevant here? If the supposition is that I either accept X or else I will suffer horribly; how exactly is that anything like a gift scenario?
Gosh, LJ, I'd never given it as much thought as you. Do enlighten me, won't you?
Second, why should I think the term 'gift' is relevant here? If the supposition is that I either accept X or else I will suffer horribly; how exactly is that anything like a gift scenario?
If you were drowning, would you accept my gift of a life preserver?
11 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSure, but it's still not a gift, is it? A gift would be "here's eternal life and stuff, enjoy". Not "Here's eternal life and stuff... if you do what I tell you." That's a bargain, or a bribe, or even, as LemonJello suggests, blackmail.
Believers have often been described as such for those folks who have accepted the gift. No more, no less.
11 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatYou got it wrong. There is no "if" to the transaction, other than, "if" you accept it. That's it.
Sure, but it's still not a gift, is it? A gift would be "here's eternal life and stuff, enjoy". Not "Here's eternal life and stuff... if you do what I tell you." That's a bargain, or a bribe, or even, as LemonJello suggests, blackmail.
11 May 10
Originally posted by avalanchethecatOther than :"Get enlightened", life has no meaning. Even "get enlightened" is meaningless because humans put meaning into things which just aint there. I've had a few rude shocks in my life where I've realized that all my lofty thoughts, etc. didn't amount to anything really.
My investigations have not yet reached conclusion, thus I am unable as yet to conclude whether or not there is a meaning.
There is no barrier between us and the "rest" except for the ones we put there. The process of breaking down these barriers is a sort of purpose in life, but still there is no meaning.
12 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOnly choice? Not so. There's also the choice to simply embrace life, savour it for all its richness and meaning, and not attempt to add some hypothetical "additional meaning" to it by speculating about unknown things, such as whether "the soul lives forever".
Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state?
12 May 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHGiven that there's no such thing as a soul, and our only choice is whether or not we should believe in it, what keeps the believer in such a state? Meaning, why not simply reject this absurd notion and move on?
Given that the soul lives forever and our only choice is where we shall spend that existence, what keeps the unbeliever in such a state? Meaning, why not simply accept a free gift and move on?
12 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyWe are prepared to believe x because the alternative is we would have to question y. We do not wish to question y.
I think the whole issue revovles around what is at the heart of our belief system.
Here are some reasons to believe something that I have come up with.
1. Undisputed facts (of course, this does not presume that because they are undisputed they are true, rather, it only means you have never had a reason to question them. It is only until someone questi belief systems for self preservational reasons.)
Can anyone else think of other reasons?
12 May 10
2 edits
Twin words 'faith' and 'belief' have become nebulous code words with variable meanings within this public forum and useless in any significant conversation. Let's consider the word 'confidence' as an honest, down to earth and clarifying upgrade. What car do you drive? Before buying it you developed confidence in some salesperson, dealership or make. Choice was/is yours.
12 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by avalanchethecatYour comment seems like a direct attack on those who proport to adhere to a faith that they have adopted. For example, you make it sound as though those who adopt the Christian faith, for example, as being intellectually lazy for not figuring things out on their own. Am I interpreting your comments correctly or no?
6. Laziness. It is simply easier to swallow someone else's 'meaning of life' than to tackle the question oneself.
I will say that there are those who adopt Christian beliefs that are lazy. Those would include people who go to church maybe once a year or not at all and claim to be Christian. In addition, they know next to nothing about the religion they profess to adhere to. Likewise, I have met atheists who simply spew out dogma they have been fed from other atheists and upon debates with them find that they have no real grasp regarding those beliefs.
My faith has shed some light into "belief structures". Christ compared faith to a mustard seed. The seed symbolized the word of God. As the sower spread his seed over the ground to bring forth a harvest, some of the seed was unsuccessful in producing the desired crop. The reasons for this were many. For example, some fell upon the stone and could not sprout roots. This was compared to those grounded in unbelief who immediatly rejected the word given to them for various reasons. Some fell on the ground and began to produce the desired crop but other weeds came up and choked them. This was an illustration of the riches of this world and the cares of this life choking out the word of God etc. However, some fell upon good ground which sprouted roots which were then able to endure the hardships of life that produced the desired crop. I find it an interesting that Christ compared a belief structure with a root system. In short, the deeper the roots the deeper ones belief structure seems to be rooted which can endure potentially destructive hardships and challenges for that belief system. Of course, once a belief system is overthrown a crisis of sorts begins as another belief system must begin to take root.
Having said that, it would then seem to matter what you are feeding your "roots". For example, the Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So it would seem that things that we feed our belief system either makes it stronger or makes it weaker. Personally, I think this to be one of the main reasons why people of faith sometimes fall away. They don't walk the walk, so to speak, and their faith is not exercised. They then elect to hang around other who are not walking by their own faith as well. What happens then is their root structure becomes compromised and is more likely to die. Of course, this does not simply apply to those of faith, this also applies to those who are not of any particular faith. In fact, I am reminded of a story I heard about Saint Pual. He was under house arrest and was actually chained to a Roman centurian so he could not escape. However, while chained Paul was allowed visitors who conversed with him and prayed with him and was present while he wrote letters to the various churches as they were censored before being mailed to them. Rumor has it that as a result of this day in and day out barrage of "faith" some of the gaurds were converted to Christianity. In short, they saw ones faith on full display and saw the relavence of this faith in the life of Paul and the other disciples. So again, I suppose I would have to come full circle to my original post that it all depends on the relevancy to ones life that determanes their belief structure.
12 May 10
2 edits
Originally posted by karoly aczelYour lofty thoughts may not amount to a hill of beans but this is OUR hill and this is OUR beans!!
[b]Other than :"Get enlightened", life has no meaning. Even "get enlightened" is meaningless because humans put meaning into things which just aint there. I've had a few rude shocks in my life where I've realized that all my lofty thoughts, etc. didn't amount to anything really.
Sorry, I heard this in a movie once and it cracks me up every time I hear it.
Anyhew, your post reminds me of Ecclesiasties where Solomon comes to the conclusion that all is vanity. In fact, wisdom and intellect only brings vexation of spirit. Perhaps you can relate.