Spirituality
31 Jan 08
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterHe would then also see his own "future" and "past" actions and be powerless to change them. Further, he would have ALWAYS been powerless to act in a different way. Thus, God wouldn't have free will.
It is true that if god exists, and if he is omniscient, that he knew, in advance, what I would type in this post. ---ringwett---
No he did not know "in advance" in the way you think it means . He knows BOTH that you will type what you type AND that you HAVE typed it. He does not look ALONG the timeline he is outside it. Therefore he sees you fu ...[text shortened]... way you can know future events is by them being pre-determined. The same is not true for God.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by rwingettGod has an infinite variety of beginning options to choose from and he can clearly foresee the entire causal chain of events that will proceed from that input, all the way to the very end ---ringwett--
Lets look at things like in a different way, shall we:
At the beginning of time, just before god creates the universe, he is confronted with an infinite number of choices as to exactly how he will set things in motion. The thing is is that he can see clearly the entire causal chain of events that will eventually proceed from his initial input. If he opts ...[text shortened]... exactly as god planned from the very beginning. After all, it couldn't have happened otherwise.
Wrong again ! He doesn't foresee the events , he POSTsees them because he is both at the end of time and beginning of time equally. God is NOT travelling along a timeline like you envisage.
You know what happens to JFK but knowing this proves nothing about whether it was inevitable or not inevitable. The reason? Because you know about the event from the perspective of it already having happened. That is how it is for God. He knows what you are going to do tomorrow because for him it happened long ago. He doesn't know what you will do until you do it but the moment when you do it is a past event already for him. It's a time paradox. If an eternal being can exist then the paradox is solved if not then it is a contradiction. What we are really debating here is whether time (and 3D) are the only dimensions.
I challenge you to show how knowing the date of JFK's death proves his death on that date was inevitable.
02 Feb 08
Originally posted by rwingettIn the end he opts for plan 2,574,379 (for the sake of argument) and sets the universe into motion. That particular choice by god has therefore determined every action Whodey will ever take and every thought Whodey will ever think. ----ringwett---
Lets look at things like in a different way, shall we:
At the beginning of time, just before god creates the universe, he is confronted with an infinite number of choices as to exactly how he will set things in motion. The thing is is that he can see clearly the entire causal chain of events that will eventually proceed from his initial input. If he opts ...[text shortened]... exactly as god planned from the very beginning. After all, it couldn't have happened otherwise.
Once again wrong! You did not consider that in creating a universe that contained and element of freedom and free will within it the 2,574,379 possibilities you talk of could be contained within one universe full of potential choices.
Your argument depends on the pre supposition that God would or could only create an entirely mechanistic/ determined universe with rigid causal chains leading to inevitable events.
This supposition is both
a) unproven
and
b) not one that is actually believed by christians or the kind of universe one would imagine God would create anyway if he was interested in creating free agents.
But hey ...persist with your strawman if it makes you feel better. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
02 Feb 08
2 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderYou project your own avoidance on to me? I was simply saying that you did not make an statement and that's all. If you want to back up your statement with a rationale do so. I suspect you will just repeat your statement thereby asserting you are right "cos you is".
An argument you don't want to deal with. I don't blame you.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhat a load of tosh.
In the end he opts for plan 2,574,379 (for the sake of argument) and sets the universe into motion. That particular choice by god has therefore determined every action Whodey will ever take and every thought Whodey will ever think. ----ringwett---
Once again wrong! You did not consider that in creating a universe that contained and element of fre ...[text shortened]... th your strawman if it makes you feel better. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
You cannot logically have an omnipotent God and "free will". You might have the perception of free will amongst the people, but they'd still only be doing what God knew they'd do before they did it. If that is the case, then they are not free will agents.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhether he foresees or postsees from his perspective is irrespective. It's the perspective of the individuals involved that is important.
God has an infinite variety of beginning options to choose from and he can clearly foresee the entire causal chain of events that will proceed from that input, all the way to the very end ---ringwett--
Wrong again ! He doesn't foresee the events , he POSTsees them because he is both at the end of time and beginning of time equally. God is NOT trav ...[text shortened]... u to show how knowing the date of JFK's death proves his death on that date was inevitable.
If I tell you what you did yesterday, you are quite unable to change it. If God tells you what you'll do tomorrow, you'd be equally unable to change it, since God knows it'll happen. Thus, no free will.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhat are you talking about, nitwit? I already fully explained my rationale and you are dodging the argument. IF God is "outside of time" then he always had to do what he did; there was no point when he could have varied his actions because when doesn't exist for him. Therefore, he is an automation without free will.
You project your own avoidance on to me? I was simply saying that you did not make an statement and that's all. If you want to back up your statement with a rationale do so. I suspect you will just repeat your statement thereby asserting you are right "cos you is".
That is not a mere statement and you know it.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by snowinscotlandNo , it doesn't prove it's inevitable or either that it's an act of free will. We know the events of the past happened and that's all we know. The information that an event has happened only tells us that it...erhem... happened NOT how it happened (with reference to whether it was a determined event or a free choice) . The reason for this is because if some past events were determined (inevitable) and other past events were free choices (not inevitable) then how would we be able to tell the difference just by knowing that they happened. ?
I don't follow - if I know the date of someone's death, does that prove the death inevitable????
Please explain otherwise?
For example , let's say Hitler choosing to invade Poland was a determined choice and JFK's decision to go the the moon was a free choice. Now let's say that you don't know which is which. What information do you need to tell the difference ? Knowing both events "happened" tells you nothing about how free those choices were.
If it were possible to prove that because something has happened therefore it was inevitable to happen then some philosopher would have come up with it by now and the idea of free will wouild have been utterly discredited.
It would also be a proof against quantum uncertainty and randomness. All one would have to say was - this particle did this a minute ago - it is a past event - therefore it was an inevitable event - therefore it must have been a caused event - therefore it cannot be a random event. Heisenberg has his pants round his ankles!
Of course he doesn't really and neither has God because all events to him are past events which means that they don't have to be inevitable events and can actually be potentially free choices. God doesn't look "into" the future or "back" into the past , he looks sideways at time itself.
03 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI thought your SuperDuper God existed "outside time"??? How then are "all events to him are past events"?? This is gibberish.
No , it doesn't prove it's inevitable or either that it's an act of free will. We know the events of the past happened and that's all we know. The information that an event has happened only tells us that it...erhem... happened NOT how it happened (with reference to whether it was a determined event or a free choice) . The reason for this is because if ...[text shortened]... "into" the future or "back" into the past , he looks sideways at time itself.