1. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jun '17 13:581 edit
    2 Kings 2:1 tells us quite clearly that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. Why is it then that some 900 years later we have Jesus telling us, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven..." (John 3:13).

    How is this not a biblical contradiction? (I will casually shrug off the '3 heavens' argument).
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 Jun '17 14:17
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    2 Kings 2:1 tells us quite clearly that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. Why is it then that some 900 years later we have Jesus telling us, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven..." (John 3:13).

    How is this not a biblical contradiction? (I will casually shrug off the '3 heavens' argument).
    Did he ascend or was he taken?
  3. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jun '17 15:05
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Did he ascend or was he taken?
    Come on Kelly, that's just splitting hairs.

    Did Elijah go to heaven 'before' Jesus or not?
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jun '17 15:36
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Come on Kelly, that's just splitting hairs.

    Did Elijah go to heaven 'before' Jesus or not?
    The man is a clown 😀 .. not Elijah, Kelly jay.

    Here is the explanation. Paul said that there are several levels of heaven. Even in the old Jewish writings like the Midrash, these things are easily explained. Birds fly in the heaven. Nobody has entered the heaven which is the abode of God.
  5. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jun '17 16:32
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The man is a clown 😀 .. not Elijah, Kelly jay.

    Here is the explanation. Paul said that there are several levels of heaven. Even in the old Jewish writings like the Midrash, these things are easily explained. Birds fly in the heaven. Nobody has entered the heaven which is the abode of God.
    What became then of poor old Elijah. If he was merely taken up into the atmosphere, presumably he was returned to Earth at some location or another?

    "And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not." (Kings 2:17).
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    16 Jun '17 16:363 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    2 Kings 2:1 tells us quite clearly that Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. Why is it then that some 900 years later we have Jesus telling us, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven..." (John 3:13).

    How is this not a biblical contradiction? (I will casually shrug off the '3 heavens' argument).
    How is this not a biblical contradiction?

    You've taken the verse out of context.

    Jesus is not saying that no one has ever ascended up to heaven - period.

    He's saying that no one has ever ascended up to heaven without having been "born from above" - without having been "born of the spirit".

    In John 3:13, Jesus is rephrasing the concept he introduced in John 3:3 and restated in John 3:5-8. John 3:13 is a third iteration.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 Jun '17 16:38
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Come on Kelly, that's just splitting hairs.

    Did Elijah go to heaven 'before' Jesus or not?
    If your going to complain you need to be specific. One word can change the meaning of most statements.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jun '17 16:481 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    What became then of poor old Elijah. If he was merely taken up into the atmosphere, presumably he was returned to Earth at some location or another?

    "And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not." (Kings 2:17).
    There are more than 2 heavens ie more than atmosphere plus God's abode. Jewish writings list 7 heavens.
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jun '17 18:28
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are more than 2 heavens ie more than atmosphere plus God's abode. Jewish writings list 7 heavens.
    2 Chronicles 21:12-15 records a letter sent by Elijah, some 10 years AFTER his heavenly chariot ride. Wouldn't this seem to support the argument that he was returned to Earth somewhere?

    "Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did."

    From the wording of this letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the diseases as future, Two years after the king became diseased the king died, having reigned only eight short years.

    www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jun '17 12:01
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    2 Chronicles 21:12-15 records a letter sent by Elijah, some 10 years AFTER his heavenly chariot ride. Wouldn't this seem to support the argument that he was returned to Earth somewhere?

    "Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of you ...[text shortened]... ased the king died, having reigned only eight short years.

    www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html
    I would say that is seems likely that he returned to earth. Although I would not discount the possibility that he wrote it from above.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Jun '17 13:011 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    2 Chronicles 21:12-15 records a letter sent by Elijah, some 10 years AFTER his heavenly chariot ride. Wouldn't this seem to support the argument that he was returned to Earth somewhere?

    "Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of you ...[text shortened]... ased the king died, having reigned only eight short years.

    www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html
    This is what you are going on about a letter 10 years after the fact, it is the same
    Elijah, was it a letter written by him before he left? How do you know?
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jun '17 13:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would say that is seems likely that he returned to earth. Although I would not discount the possibility that he wrote it from above.
    Do the pens in heaven have everlasting ink?

    😞
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jun '17 13:07
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    This is what you are going on about a letter 10 years after the fact, it is the same
    Elijah, was it a letter written by him before he left? How do you know?
    Well, the biblical passage refers to him as 'Elijah the prophet' so i think it highly likely we are talking about the same guy.

    And I don't see how it could have been written in advance when he speaks of things that haven't happen yet in a past tense. (Even if he was a prophet).
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Jun '17 13:241 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Well, the biblical passage refers to him as 'Elijah the prophet' so i think it highly likely we are talking about the same guy.

    And I don't see how it could have been written in advance when he speaks of things that haven't happen yet in a past tense. (Even if he was a prophet).
    I'll look into it, I'm really not familiar with your complaint.
    Only a prophet could write about things in advance.
  15. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jun '17 13:51
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I'll look into it, I'm really not familiar with your complaint.
    Only a prophet could write about things in advance.
    Less complaint, more observation. 🙂
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