FMF & jaywill on Revelation

Revelation is not easy. And I would not suggest that someone new to the Bible start with reading Revelation.

But going to the extreme of discarding it is too much.

Originally posted by FMF
So the premise of this thread is that you cannot recall any of the things I posted before and that I have to type them all out again?

Though to be fair I believe it's not always intentional, I have found that to be a very common theme among the skeptics. You get about 3 pages into the thread and all the sudden it's back to square one and if you don't repeat what you said then you are brow beaten for it.

I've had to repeat the same stuff over and over again, to the very same people and I'm convinced that even though some of them do it intentionally just to wear you down and "win" the debate when you give up and walk off, the majority of them are probably just vastly confused when it comes to the Word of God... mostly due to lack of real study and conveniently nabbing talking points from website bullet lists without really learning anything.

Originally posted by jaywill
I have to disagree with you. Your reasons are not good.....

...and then you don't explain why. At all. I think I explained myself clearly. But again, it's kind of you to completely ignore it and reiterate your broken record.

Originally posted by Badwater
...and then you don't explain why. At all. I think I explained myself clearly. But again, it's kind of you to completely ignore it and reiterate your broken record.

I gave you seven reasons - "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (Rev.2:7;2:11,29;3:6,13,22)

Or if you wish, a sevenfold emphazied reason. Whoever has an ear to hear is to hear the Spirit speaking to the churches. Please compare this kind of saying to these other similar passages in the Bible on hearing -

Rev. 13:9; Matt. 11:15; 13:9,16-17; Job 43:14-16; Isa. 50:4; Jer. 6:10; Acts 7:51; Isa. 6:10; Ezek 12:2; Matt. 13:14-15; Acts 28:27 ... just to name a few.

Now if you wish I will comment briefly this morning on your reasons with more detail:

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The biggest problem with Revelation has to do with the willingness of too many to put credence into its 'prophecies'.
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This may be a problem. It is not necessarily limited to this book. And it is not sufficient reason to say, because of this, the book is not intended for the entire church age until Jesus physically returns.

Some people play around with the US Constitution. We don't surmise that it is not addressed to the country for centries to come because of that.

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Symbolic language allows far too much latitude in the interpreter's summation of what it's supposed to mean.
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Latitude in interpretation is not an excuse to say that I should discard Revelation as not addressed to me.

Some of us like to think we can discern between superior exergesis and inferior. Some of us Christians believe we can separate more plausible interpretations from inferior implausible ones. This is true not only of Revelation but of other biblical books as well.

We do not say "This book is not addressed to modern believers" simply because there are some bogus expositions of it.

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Also, just as in the writings of Nostradamus, we have prediction and prophesy that are being applied after the fact, not beforehand.
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I have not read Nostradamus, have no desire to do so. But the little I know second hand leads me to believe that there is no comparison between Nostradamus's predictions for what seems nothing but sensational value and tickling the curiosity of people, and the prophecy of the Bible.

I know of no underlying unity of purpose in Nostradamus predictions other than to dazzle the curious. The occult and the holy do not compare. And we do not say Revelation is not intended for modern Christians simply becuase some people, not too keenly, assume that the Bible and Nostradamus are about the same in nature. They are not.

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Never mind entire passages that are entirely ignored because they don't fit the reader's perspective of what is actually being prophesied.
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Difficulties in interpretation, problems with inferior methods of interpretation do not mean that Revelation is not intended for believers to read throughout the entire church age.

I think these are excuses. They may in some cases have some ground. But they are not sufficient reasons to conclude that Revelation is not intended for the believers throughout the entire church age. We are told of the blessing to read it and the blessing to keep the things written therein.

Strictly speaking, keeping the things does not have to mean that one entirely understands the things. We should read it for spiritual nourishment, conviction, general warning, and to discern the attitude and ways of God, albiet with some questions as to what this or that may mean in detail.

If needs help with Revelation, one can consult superior expositions of it. Not all are fanciful or superficially sensational. And many better studies on it admit that there are varied interpretations of some difficult symbols. They present reasons why this or that may be more applicable.


This would be the case with any other biblical book. Besides, there is a blessing in just reading Revelation. And reading it aloud is very blessed, IMO.

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I maintain that Revelations was written to an audience that was desperate and despondent following the crush of the Jewish rebellion and destruction of the temple. It is written to their specific agony and fear of annihilation. It is not written to us - at all
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I see no logical reason why you should restrict it to such an audience. Did it say that only those despondent because of the temple destruction are the audience of the book ? If not, at best you are just speculating.

Why must one have to be despondent at all to qualify to receive edification from this book? Even the sense of the vanity of human life without God's kingdom, even human life in its best state, can be a cause to recevie edification from Revelation.

How about simply to see where history is going? How about to see how the human race will end up? How about to know that God will triumph over the curse and over His enemies Satanic and human? How about to know of the universal vindication of Jesus Christ and the new heaven and new earth with the holy climax of salvation to all believers?

How about to know that all will be resurrected and be judged by God?

There are many many things in Revelation which are profitable to know without being limited to being a despondent Jewish Christian of the first century.

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The message of Revelation is similar to the story of Pandora's Box.
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I don't see the similarity. It would be more sensible to me to see Genesis as a record of how all the evils came into the world.

Perhaps you mean with the unleashing of demonic forces on the earth in the end times. Well, I can see how you could make some comparison. But I regard Pandora's Box as Greek Mythology and Revelation as God's Word of prophesy told with signs.

I think there is a big difference. There is some superficial similarity between the sun in the sky and the flashlight on the tip of a pen. They both shine. But there are tremendous differences beside that.

There are tremendous differences between Greek Mythology and the Bible.

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What was in the bottom of Pandora's Box after all the evils had been loosened? Hope. So it is with Revelations. Revelations resonates with hope in the end, despite the apocalyptic language and events. It is saying that despite the despair of the Jews in the first and second centuries, despite the persecution, despite the destruction of what Jews and the early Christians hold most sacred, in spite of the martyrdom - there is hope.
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I'll have to speak to this latter.

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That is the only essential message of Revelations.
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There is no question that the whole Bible is a revelation to instill hope and equip believers in God to pass through the necessary trials to come.

So I do not disagree with your speaking of the hope instilled by the book. But why should you assume that we don't need such encouragement throughout the entire church age ? Do Christians not need a word of hope in 2009 AD?

"He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

I'll revisit your other comments latter.

Originally posted by sumydid
Though to be fair I believe it's not always intentional, I have found that to be a very common theme among the skeptics. You get about 3 pages into the thread and all the sudden it's back to square one and if you don't repeat what you said then you are brow beaten for it.

I've had to repeat the same stuff over and over again, to the very same people and ...[text shortened]... iently nabbing talking points from website bullet lists without really learning anything.

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I've had to repeat the same stuff over and over again, to the very same people and I'm convinced that even though some of them do it intentionally just to wear you down and "win" the debate when you give up and walk off, the majority of them are probably just vastly confused when it comes to the Word of God... mostly due to lack of real study and conveniently nabbing talking points from website bullet lists without really learning anything.
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Rather well put.

Originally posted by sumydid
Though to be fair I believe it's not always intentional, I have found that to be a very common theme among the skeptics. You get about 3 pages into the thread and all the sudden it's back to square one and if you don't repeat what you said then you are brow beaten for it.

I thought I understood your post but then jaywill complimented you for it which made me realise that perhaps I don't understand your post at all.

A general word about Revelation.

There is nothing that much new in the book. To understand some things you need to be firstly very familiar with the Bible. That is because so much of the Bible interprets itself.

When you come to a symbol you should see how else this kind of symbol was used in the previous books of the Bible.

There is a rainbow around the throne of God in chapter 4. How else is the sign of a rainbow used in the Bible ? That is what you should ask. if you are familiar you will go back to Genesis to the first mention of a rainbow after the flood of Noah. That will possibly help you to know what the rainbow in Revelation 4 is suppose to mean.

It has something to do with God's promise not to wipe out all life on earth when He judges the world.

This is one example of many many. "How else was this kind of symbol used in the Bible ?"

If someone says "Well, the four horsemen in chapter 4 must be the Beatles". That is bad exegesis. It is , as Badwater said, too much latitude.

Do not discard Revelation because someone said, Nostradamus style, that the four horsemen must be the four Rock Musicians, the Beatles.

Look rather to see what,if anything, the book itself said. In some cases it is told you outright what something is to mean.

Maybe we will take a particular difficult chapter and offer superior exegesis on it.

Anyway. First in foremost you have to be in a prayerful attitude. John was in spirit when he wrote the book. The reader should be in spirit also. That means in touch with the deepest spiritual part of your being in a prayerful way. You need Jesus. You need the Holy Spirit.

You also have to master the facts. You have to master the facts. You have to know what is in each chapter. Then we can bring things together and show how they relate.

You have to know about the big scroll in chapter 5. It will help to understand the possible significance of the little scroll in chapter 10. One has to be familiar with the facts. Know the contents. Then we can go on to seperate inferior expositions from superior ones.

Originally posted by jaywill
First in foremost you have to be in a prayerful attitude. John was in spirit when he wrote the book. The reader should be in spirit also. That means in touch with the deepest spiritual part of your being in a prayerful way. You need Jesus. You need the Holy Spirit.

What if one believes that the Book is deliberate manipulation designed and canonized by Christian technocrats? If this affects one's 'spirit' and 'faith' adversely, how then is one to read it?

Originally posted by jaywill
There is a rainbow around the throne of God in chapter 4. How else is the sign of a rainbow used in the Bible ? That is what you should ask. if you are familiar you will go back to Genesis to the first mention of a rainbow after the flood of Noah. That will possibly help you to know what the rainbow in Revelation 4 is suppose to mean.

Would have citing this symbol deliberately have been beyond the intellect and guile of the person or persons who assembled the Book of Revelation?

Originally posted by FMF
What if one believes that the Book is deliberate manipulation designed and canonized by Christian technocrats? If this affects one's 'spirit' and 'faith' adversely, how then is one to read it?

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What if one believes that the Book is deliberate manipulation designed and canonized by Christian technocrats? If this affects one's 'spirit' and 'faith' adversely, how then is one to read it?
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These are vague accusations .... "Christian technocrats".

To date I have seen from you not one iota of evidence for your conspiracy theory. You clearly do not want to go into the contents of the book.

I assume that something in church history fuels your suspicion that the motives behind the book of Revelation was to get money out of the pockets of Christians into the hands of some religous hierarchy.

Such abuses of course did and continue to occur. I don't see how it effects to writing of Revelation. Nor have you ever given me a shred of logic why the contents plainly show that to be the case.

I could just as well start a conspiracy theory that the book of Malachi was concocted to advance the sales revenue of Kentucky Fried Chicken.

I just have never seen your connections so as to validate your "Revelation - the product of Christian technocrats" theory.

Originally posted by FMF
Would have citing this symbol deliberately have been beyond the intellect and guile of the person or persons who assembled the Book of Revelation?

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Would have citing this symbol deliberately have been beyond the intellect and guile of the person or persons who assembled the Book of Revelation?
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John was faithful to record what he saw and heard. Maybe some of the things written he himself was not sure of as to their meaning.

In speaking of the inspiration of Scripture prophecy Peter tells us:

" Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of one's own interpretation; For no prophecy was ever borne by the will of man, but men spoke from God while being borne by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:20,21)

Originally posted by FMF
What if one believes that the Book is deliberate manipulation designed and canonized by Christian technocrats? If this affects one's 'spirit' and 'faith' adversely, how then is one to read it?

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What if one believes that the Book is deliberate manipulation designed and canonized by Christian technocrats? If this affects one's 'spirit' and 'faith' adversely, how then is one to read it?
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I would spend time opening my heart to the Lord Jesus.

I would pray and ask him to free me from all concepts so as to hear what the Spirit is speaking in this or any other book.

If there are personal offenses which influence you I would forgive them specifically in the name of Jesus.

I would ask God simply to unload me of prejudices. And I would come to the book of Revelation firstly with the desire to touch and taste Christ, to commune with God, and to have fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

The Recovery Version of the Bible has tremendous footnotes on Revelation. But first it might be good simply to read it with no notes to just commune with the Holy Spirit.

Maybe not too much reading. A chapter a day prayerfully would be good.

Originally posted by jaywill
These are vague accusations .... "Christian technocrats". [...] I just have never seen your connections so as to validate your "[b]Revelation - the product of Christian technocrats" theory.[/b]

For instance, the people behind the Muratorian canon, the Cheltenham canon, the Athanasius' canon. The organizers and members of the Nicea council, the Hippo council and the two Carthage councils.

Also the people who stage managed the Western Church's "victory" over the Eastern Church which saw the Book of Revelation for the corporate manouveur that it was, and strenuously objected on theological grounds. Were all those technocrats in the Eastern church simply not the real "the church fathers" (were they doing Satan's bidding, do you think?) and not "guided by the Spirit of Christ"? A fact confirmed by, er... God's intervention on the side of 'corporate West'? Is that how it worked?

My 'Revelation was the product of Christian technocrats' thing is rather more than a theory. It has the virtue of being entirely historical - not to mention plain to see. In return you quote the Book itself and cite its coherence as "proof" that it was divinely inspired - as if I have ever suggested that its corporate orthodoxy-serving authors were incapable of comprehending other parts of the canon and then producing Revelation coherently and adding it to the Bible 400 years after Jesus' death.

Originally posted by jaywill
I would spend time opening my heart to the Lord Jesus.

I would pray and ask him to free me from all concepts so as to hear what the Spirit is speaking in this or any other book.

What if I have opened my heart to Jesus through prayer, and He is trying to free me, and everyone else, from the concept (of Revelation) that you hold so dear?

Originally posted by FMF
What if I have opened my heart to Jesus through prayer, and He is trying to free me, and everyone else, from the concept (of Revelation) that you hold so dear?

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What if I have opened my heart to Jesus through prayer, and He is trying to free me, and everyone else, from the concept (of Revelation) that you hold so dear?
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This "What if" is a hypothetical.

Is that what is happening to you ? Are you certain about that ?

As for your previous comments, I would have to do some review of history before I can converse with you on this.

I will only say this at this point. I do not regard any "victory" had by Western Roman Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy.

You never show me any evidence of your technocrat conspiracy in the text of Revelation.