FMF & jaywill on Revelation

jaywill

Spirituality

19 May '09 14:57

FMF
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30 May '09 12:25
Originally posted by jaywill
Up to now all I have from you is a wink and a smile to trust you that the "technocrats" were up to their dirty tricks. I am tired of asking you to show me. So I will not again.
There was a whole thread before. I said at the beginning of this one that I am not going to type out dozens and dozens of posts all over again just to indulge you.

Now you've started to misrepresent my views by suggesting that I said church leaders did what they did because they were 'taking money from the faithful' and were up to 'dirty tricks'. These are not expressions I have used, as you well know.

Corporatism is corporatism. There are corporate interests. And there are technocrats dedicated to serving them. Corporations consolidate their own power through the control of information and taking control of expertise. It's all very normal. There's no need to try to pretend otherwise by talking of 'dirty tricks' and 'taking money.

I am not rooting for West over East or East over West.

And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?
jaywill
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30 May '09 12:29
Originally posted by FMF
There was a whole thread before. I said at the beginning of this one that I am not going to type out dozens and dozens of posts all over again just to indulge you.

Now you've started to misrepresent my views by suggesting that I said church leaders did what they did because they were 'taking money from the faithful' and were up to 'dirty tricks'. These are no ...[text shortened]... or East over West.

And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?[/b]
=========================
And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?
===============================

How so? Please explain this charge.
jaywill
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30 May '09 12:31
Originally posted by FMF
There was a whole thread before. I said at the beginning of this one that I am not going to type out dozens and dozens of posts all over again just to indulge you.

Now you've started to misrepresent my views by suggesting that I said church leaders did what they did because they were 'taking money from the faithful' and were up to 'dirty tricks'. These are no ...[text shortened]... or East over West.

And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?[/b]
=================================
And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?
==================================

Splinded. So shall I go through some of Revelation and show you how some portions of it are much closer to Greek Orthodoxy's view of theosis ??

I'll show you that I am not partial.
jaywill
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30 May '09 14:08
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?
==================================

Splendid. So shall I go through some of Revelation and show you how some portions of it are much closer to Greek Orthodoxy's view of theosis ??

I'll show you that I am not partial.[/b]

Spelling correction.
FMF
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30 May '09 15:09
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================
And yet you chose the West's view and reject the East. Why?
===============================

How so? Please explain this charge.[/b]
Theologians from the Eastern Church did not think Revelation was the testimony of Jesus. They were against its inclusion.
jaywill
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30 May '09 19:13
Originally posted by FMF
Theologians from the Eastern Church did not think Revelation was the testimony of Jesus. They were against its inclusion.
All of them ?
FMF
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31 May '09 01:39
Originally posted by jaywill
All of them ?
All of them and all of their friends too.

I let hundreds and hundreds of hyperbolic assertions pass without comment in your long long long posts. Everyone here does. And here you are splitting a hair. You are a piece of work.

Anyway, those who opposed Revelation were not "fathers of the church"? And not "in the spirit of Jesus"? And, as you suggested/insinuated elsewhere (...if they were championing the 'wrong' books or not championing the 'right' ones...), doing satan's work?

The choice was made by the technocrats of the corporate church. The Western technocrats won, and the Eastern technocrats lost. You root, retrospectively, for the West yes? The objection of the eastern church were wrong were they?

And corporate interests and technocratic infighting played no part, is that right??
jaywill
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31 May '09 02:461 edit
Originally posted by FMF
All of them and all of their friends too.

I let hundreds and hundreds of hyperbolic assertions pass without comment in your long long long posts. Everyone here does. And here you are splitting a hair. You are a piece of work.

Anyway, those who opposed Revelation were not "fathers of the church"? And not "in the spirit of Jesus"? And, as you suggested/insi

And corporate interests and technocratic infighting played no part, is that right??
The link below is of the Greek Orthodox Church and is a study of subjects in the book of Revelation.

Why ?

http://www.voiceofelijah.org/freeoffer/google/earlychurch.html?gclid=CJSa3svE5ZoCFQNaFQod_U0vCQ
jaywill
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31 May '09 02:491 edit
FMF,

The link below is provided by the Greek Orthodox Church.

It contains an outline to their New Testament and includes the book of Revelation.

Why ?

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/new-testament/nt-index.asp
FMF
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31 May '09 03:47
Originally posted by jaywill
FMF,

The link below is provided by the Greek Orthodox Church.

It contains an outline to their New Testament and includes the book of [b]Revelation.

Why ?[/b]
Why are you being obtuse?

We are talking about what happened 400 years after Jesus' death - the corporate infighting - not the upshot of the West's technocratic triumph over the East.
jaywill
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31 May '09 15:113 edits
Originally posted by FMF
Why are you being obtuse?

We are talking about what happened 400 years after Jesus' death - the corporate infighting - not the upshot of the West's technocratic triumph over the East.
============================
Why are you being obtuse?

We are talking about what happened 400 years after Jesus' death - the corporate infighting - not the upshot of the West's technocratic triumph over the East.
================================

Today, your "Eastern" Greek Orthodoxy acknowledges Revelation as part of the NT canon?

Since you know so much about it, please tell me when Greek Orthodoxy began to recognize the book of Revelation as canonical ?

I'm trying to learn something from you now if you have so much church history at your fingertips. Aside from your great alledged "triumph" of West over East, when did the Greek Orthodox Church start to have Revelation in the canonical books of the NT?
FMF
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01 Jun '09 00:28
Originally posted by jaywill
Today, your "Eastern" Greek Orthodoxy acknowledges Revelation as part of the NT canon?
Of course. The western church won the corporate struggle. Why are you being so obtuse? Did I ever say that Revelation was not in the 'Greek' version of the Bible?

So you are apparently now quoting the corporate Greek Church's current stance on Revelation to bolster your claim that there was no corporate church interests involved in the book's inclusion? What happened to all the theologians that fought tooth and nail to keep the Revelation out?

What happened to thei careers as "fathers of the church"?

Do you know how corporatism works?
jaywill
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01 Jun '09 01:435 edits
Originally posted by FMF
Of course. The western church won the corporate struggle. Why are you being so obtuse? Did I ever say that Revelation was not in the 'Greek' version of the Bible?

So you are apparently now quoting the corporate Greek Church's current stance on Revelation to bolster your claim that there was no corporate church interests involved in the book's inclusion? What ...[text shortened]... happened to thei careers as "fathers of the church"?

Do you know how corporatism works?
===========================
Of course. The western church won the corporate struggle. Why are you being so obtuse? Did I ever say that Revelation was not in the 'Greek' version of the Bible?

So you are apparently now quoting the corporate Greek Church's current stance on Revelation to bolster your claim that there was no corporate church interests involved in the book's inclusion? What happened to all the theologians that fought tooth and nail to keep the Revelation out?

What happened to thei careers as "fathers of the church"?

Do you know how corporatism works?
=================================

I do not care how anyone of the fathers had a "corporate" self interest in the group who rightly recognized the inspiration of Revelation. I don't believe your conspiracy theory.

On that bases of such a complaint I suppose no book of the NT would come up to your standard of recognition as apostolic and inspired.

On the bases of weeding out someone somewhere who was concerned about a "turf" perhaps there was always someone among God's people. Maybe you would be better suited as a Moslem who say the angel dictated the Quran.

Where the church fathers perfect ? I don't think so. Peter and Paul and John were not perfect. I don't know why I should expect the disciples after them to be perfect.

Your reasoning amounts to me to be one big EXCUSE. So continue on then and disqualify Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and all the books of the New Testaments as politically motivated shoeins.

So far you still draw back from, furnishing evidence within Revelation itself that it favors one hierarchical ecclesiology over another. Where's the supposed favoritism to Western Christianity in Revelation ?

You cannot even site one solitary verse in 22 chapters !
Nothing whatsoever is presented as evidence of bias or favor of Western Christianity over Eastern.

We have been falsely aroused to alarm by this rational of yours.
jaywill
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01 Jun '09 01:59
FMF,

Does Revelation encourage Mary worship?
Does Revelation state that Rome is the Mother Church?

Does Revelation put in a plug of some kind for the Pope?
Does Revelation lean toward the Latin language over the Greek language?

Does Revelation say anything about Eastern Christianity or Western Christianity?

Does Revelation mention cardinals, bishops, or any other Catholic hierarchical position?

Which political form of government does Revelation push ???

Which church Council does Revelation site as its God ordained authority ?

Where is there a word in Revelation attacking Greek Orthodoxy explicitly?
FMF
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01 Jun '09 03:21
Originally posted by jaywill
I do not care how anyone of the fathers had a "corporate" self interest in the group who rightly recognized the inspiration of Revelation.
This much is absolutely clear.