1. Donationbuckky
    Filthy sinner
    Outskirts of bliss
    Joined
    24 Sep '02
    Moves
    96652
    04 Aug '11 11:14
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die on the cross for our sins. Why is this a grandfathered in as a rational concept ? Why would a God need Blood to forgive ? What was the hissy fit about in the first place ? Adam and Eve eating the stupid fruit blew it for all of humanity, and God got so ticked off that everyone was headed for Hell untill the Son sacrfice thing happened. There is nothing about this story that seems remotely logical or good.. Primitive ideas on the nature of God is what it is.
  2. Standard memberavalanchethecat
    Not actually a cat
    Joined
    09 Apr '10
    Moves
    14251
    04 Aug '11 11:17
    Originally posted by buckky
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die on the cross for our sins. Why is this a grandfathered in as a rational concept ? Why would a God need Blood to forgive ? What was the hissy fit about in the first place ? Adam and Eve eating the stupid fruit blew it for all of humanity, and God got so ticked off that everyone was headed for Hell unt ...[text shortened]... story that seems remotely logical or good.. Primitive ideas on the nature of God is what it is.
    All the more strange that given this behaviour, people still cling to the idea that this 'god' is omniscient.
  3. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    04 Aug '11 11:381 edit
    Originally posted by buckky
    Why is this a grandfathered in as a rational concept ?
    If find almost all the key concepts in theism to be totally irrational yet most theist take them as rational without a second thought. They find them so rational that they cannot explain them.
    What is even more interesting is that there are also stories (such as genesis) that purport to explain some of the more thorny topics (why is there so much suffering), but do not actually do so. They invariably just hide the problem in layer upon layer of irrationality.

    I find this sort of thing really stands out when you read the Narnia books. Here is a writer who has obviously thought long and hard about the problems of Christianity and is supposedly trying to explain them through the medium of story and analogy. Yet he completely fails to explain anything and instead highlights a whole host of problems that you might not have thought about. You suddenly realise that if Aslan was left out of the books they would be so much more sensible.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
    28 Dec '04
    Moves
    52619
    04 Aug '11 12:321 edit
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    All the more strange that given this behaviour, people still cling to the idea that this 'god' is omniscient.
    It is part and parcel of a concept called cognitive dissonance. For instance, the nutjobs who thought the world was going to end in march, believing such by a brainwashing preacher, it turns out that such beliefs, instead of being diluted by reality, actually goes the opposite way, believing even more fervently the truth of the nutjob preacher's prognostications about the coming end of the world. They see truth in such things because of the way the planet is going, 'look at global warming', look at the economy, the world is going to hell in a handbasket', all those signs serve to strengthen their belief. If we were being monitored by aliens, I hate to think of how they would judge humanity based on that sub set of humans.
  5. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    04 Aug '11 12:545 edits
    The coming of the Lord Jesus was God's requirement in righteousness. If there had been divine love without divine righteousness, Christ the Son of God wold not have needed to come to the earth. If it was only a matter of God's love then there would be no need for the cross and the blood of Jesus.

    Without God caring for His righteousness He could forgive us any way He wants to:

    1. He could simply overlook our sins.
    2. He could forgive them lightly and sloppily in a sentimental manner, like a permissive irresponsible parent.
    3. He could be completely unconcerned about our sins.

    If God's righteousness was not involved He could just say "Since all have sinned, I will let you go this time; Just do not sin again."

    These kinds of loose "forgiveness" does not require God to do anything to demonstrate the cost to Him to clear up your problem of sin.

    When sin entered the world, God's government was damaged. "So what?" the rebel may say, because his heart is so darkened.

    When sin entered the world, the prescribed order in the universe was broken. "That's no big deal!" the sinner may say out of the blackness of his own heart.

    When sin entered into the world God's glory was trampled on, His holiness was profaned and His authority was rejected.

    "Oh, just suck it up God. That is not big problem that God's glory was trodden under, that God's glory was profaned or His authority was rejected. If that's a big deal then we can fix that up with no problem."

    This is the darkened mind. "God's truth is misunderstood and rejected ? That's no big deal." This is the thought of the sin damaged mind.

    So why the blood of Jesus ? Some skeptical people are right. This is something hard to explain. Maybe even in eternity I will not be able to fully explain why the blood of the Son of God.

    But, we have to say something based on what the revelation of the Bible shows. It COST something for God to remedy the problem between man and God caused by man's sin. It is within God's authority to forgive in such a way that we know that it COST Him something to fix our problem.

    God created man and established a relationship. Man has the power to destroy that relationship. Man can mess the relationship up with his free will. Though man can mess up the relationship, man cannot fix it back once man has destroyed it.

    If that relationship is destroyed through man's sin, God has to come in and do something to repair the situation. And He has done so in terms that we can understand. It cost something the preciousness of which cannot be humanly calculated. You and I cannot know the value, the preciousness, the cost to God to repair the relationship which we have damaged.

    God has taken into Himself in the Son, the judgment for our sins. The blood of the Son of God is the emblem to remind creation that there can be forgiveness because there has been payment for sin.

    From the forgiven sinner's point of view it seems like "free" forgvieness. From God's point of view there is no such thing as free forgiveness. There is no such thing to God as forgiveness without sin being judged.

    Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. A forgiven sinner is not a deptor whose dept has been forgotten. A forgiven sinner is a deptor whose dept has been PAID.

    A forgiven sinner is a deptor whose dept has been paid in an overflowing and overwhealming manner. More than enough has been paid for His sins, your sins, my sins, and the sins of the whole world. The value of the payment can only be fully known to God Himself. It is the blood of Christ in His death to carry in His body the judgment on His cross.

    No, this little post does not presume to completely deal with the weighty subject of redemption.
  6. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    04 Aug '11 13:397 edits
    The blood of Christ means that God will not give up His righteous standard. He loves man. He loves man very much. But He will not drop His righteousness for the sake of His love for man.

    Some people expect that God should just love the sinner and forgive the sinner only because of love. But God will forgive in a way which upholds His righteousness, His dignity, His glory, and His righteous way of doing things.

    The sinner does not care how he is saved from his sins just as long as he is saved. Anyway he can get saved will do. The procedure doesn't matter. Whether it is a straight way or a crooked way doesn't matter. Just as long as he gets saved from the judgment of God, he couldn't care less what method is used.

    This is like a thief who steals money. The thief doesn't care how the money is obtained. Anyway he gets the money is OK as long as he GETS it.

    So many sinners care nothing for God's procedure. Why go through all that about the blood of the cross and the Son of God. Just let me go free because you love me!

    The cross of Jesus is a place where the love of God and the righteousness of God coordinate together. I am forgiven because my dept was paid by another. I am commanded to believe and acknowledge this Dept Payer, the Son of God.

    You got another way to redeem man ? Next time you're God you set the universe the way you think it should go.

    But God of the Bible will not offer a fraudulent salvation. He intends to save us, but He will do so in a way that is related to His nature, His moral standard, his dignity, His law, and His righteousness. He will not save us lawlessly.

    He will not save the sinner in a manner that ignores righteousness altogether.
    He will save the sinner in a manner that shows that more than just love is involved. The dept has to be paid. The sins have to be judged. The hatred of sin by God will be demonstrated.

    He will not forgive by just saying "Let's just forget about it. I know you didn't really mean it."

    He will forgive in a manner that none will be able to say in unrighteous or illegal.
    The enemies of God will not be able to say that God forgave simply by showing favorites in a loose, permissive way.

    He will save in a manner that He HAS to forgive the believer because the believer's dept has been paid. Whether He likes you or does not like you now, it is the righteous thing for Him to do. The dept is no longer owed. The dept has been paid in Christ with His blood on Calvary. He is now faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. He is bound by His own righteous procedure.

    Maybe today God decides He doesn't like me. I have boldness because of the blood of Christ. "Lord, whether you like me or you don't like me, You are BOUND by your own righteousness to forgive me. My sins have been paid for by the death of Your Son on the cross. You have to forgive me. Righteousness is the foundation of Your throne. The word of God said in Psalm 89:14 "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne ..." .


    God has to take care of the foundation of His throne. The foundation of His authority is righteousness. He is righteous now to forgive me. He must forgive me because of the redemption of the Son of God.

    I challenge any sinner to go to God in prayer and ask Him "God is it true that if I believe in Christ the Son of God, You have to forgive me of all my sins ?"

    A good part of the Old Testament is dedicated to demonstrating the hatred of God for sinning. And then there is the demonstration of His love and righteousness in Christ. Christ, because of His love, takes into Himself the judgment of the hated sin of the world. When we believe into Christ, our dept is paid in full. We are not forgiven deptors who still owe. We are forgiven deptors who are paid up because of the blood of Jesus.
  7. Standard memberavalanchethecat
    Not actually a cat
    Joined
    09 Apr '10
    Moves
    14251
    04 Aug '11 13:53
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The blood of Christ means that God will not give up His righteous standard. He loves man. He loves man very much. But He will not drop His righteousness for the sake of His love for man.

    Some people expect that God should just love the sinner and forgive the sinner only because of love. But God will forgive in a way which upholds His righteousness, His d ...[text shortened]... ll owe. We are forgiven deptors who are paid up because of the blood of Jesus.
    Respectfully dude, can you not make your point in a couple of paragraphs? I just can't be arsed to read through those encyclopaedic posts of yours.
  8. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    04 Aug '11 13:56
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Respectfully dude, can you not make your point in a couple of paragraphs? I just can't be arsed to read through those encyclopaedic posts of yours.
    Just read as much as you can. If your heart is opened, I trust that you will be blessed even by the portion you do read.
  9. Standard memberavalanchethecat
    Not actually a cat
    Joined
    09 Apr '10
    Moves
    14251
    04 Aug '11 14:23
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Just read as much as you can. If your heart is opened, I trust that you will be blessed even by the portion you do read.
    I'm sorry man, I strive to be a good person in all I do, but scripture's a desert to me.
  10. Joined
    01 Jun '06
    Moves
    274
    04 Aug '11 14:39
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The coming of the Lord Jesus was God's requirement in righteousness. If there had been divine love without divine righteousness, Christ the Son of God wold not have needed to come to the earth. If it was only a matter of God's love then there would be no need for the cross and the blood of Jesus.

    Without God caring for His righteousness He could forgive ...[text shortened]... presume to completely deal with the weighty subject of redemption.
    What the hell does "God's requirement in righteousness" or "divine righteousness" or even just "righteousness" even mean? And how and why does a blood sacrifice satisfy it?

    --- Penguin.
  11. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    04 Aug '11 15:323 edits
    Originally posted by Penguin
    What the hell does "God's requirement in righteousness" or "divine righteousness" or even just "righteousness" even mean? And how and why does a blood sacrifice satisfy it?

    --- Penguin.
    A condition for fellowship between man and God is that man not be a transgressor of the law of God.

    When Adam was created he was in a neutral stage of innocence. He had no problems with God. There was no obstacle to fellowship. There was no barrier to communion between the two.

    When Adam disobeyed the command of God not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he moved out of that neutral and innocent position to a position of a transgressor against God.

    The requirement of not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was negated and man became a sinner. But it was more serious than just man became guilty of an act of sin. Man became infested, polluted, with a parisitic evil nature of sinning. Man became the host of an evil parasitic sinning nature.

    Before the tree of life was open to man's partaking. Now that man has transgressed and become infested with the sin nature, the way to the tree of life was barred.

    The fallen mankind became "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)

    It was more serious than just being estranged from God. Man was alienated from partaking of God as life. That is the closest communion and intertwining of God and man. The neutral man is now guilty and alienated from the life of God.

    The soul that sins must die. That is the requirement of God.
    Adam now hides from God. The sweet fellowship has been spoiled. Now man fails to enter into God's eternal purpose to partake of the very life of God embodied in the tree of life. And man's conscience informs him that he is guilty of transgression. Adam runs off to hide.

    The prophet Isaiah says "No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear. But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isa. 59:1,2)

    The barrier of fellowship with God is our sins.
    The obstacle of communion with God is our iniquities.
    Jesus deals with these barriers in His salvation.

    The word picture accompanying the word "sin" in Hebrew is a target of an archer. It means to miss the mark. It is as if in all human life there is a target to hit in all of our moral behavior. Sin is to miss the mark.

    If we hit the bullseye in our actions and speech and deeds there would be no sin. The requirement of the Governor of all creation would be met.
    But now we continually fail to hit the bullseye. We miss the target in our deeds. We sin. The requirement to hit the target of God's moral standard for His creature man is missed.

    What would it look like to ALWAYS hit the target? What would it look like to ALWAYS meet the requirement of moral perfection of God. What would it look like to have never sinned at all ?

    We have to look to one Jesus Christ. Every word, every action, even every thought, motive, intention, inclination, memory, day dream, ever atom of His behavior HIT the bullseye.

    Jesus Christ is what God meant by Man. We are all abnormal. We are all fallen below the standard. We have all transgressed the requirement of God. We need a Savior. And we need a new life in Him.

    The neutral man created by God was not created guilty or a transgressor. He moved from the stage of innocence to the stage of guiltiness. And we all were brought under a curse because of that.

    But the SAME principle that worked against us God uses in Christ to work for us. Because of the one righteous act of the Son of God, in the same way, we can be justified from all sin.

    Some people talk about "Original Sin". Yet they should also recognize something we might call "Original Righteousness".

    Christ is the second man. Christ is the last Adam.
    Where Adam brought all in him under a curse Christ brings all who will be transfered into Him through faith, into eternal redemption, justification, and eternal life.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
    Joined
    24 Jan '11
    Moves
    12695
    04 Aug '11 23:08
    Originally posted by jaywill
    The blood of Christ means that God will not give up His righteous standard. He loves man. He loves man very much. But He will not drop His righteousness for the sake of His love for man.

    Some people expect that God should just love the sinner and forgive the sinner only because of love. But God will forgive in a way which upholds His righteousness, His d ...[text shortened]... ll owe. We are forgiven deptors who are paid up because of the blood of Jesus.
    Abraham proved to God that He believed God and it was counted to him
    as righteousness. We also must prove to God that we believe Him to be
    saved by the blood of Christ. These posters questioning God's ways,
    which are higher than our ways, obviously still need to prove they believe
    God.
  13. Standard memberDasa
    Dasa
    Account suspended
    Joined
    20 May '10
    Moves
    8042
    05 Aug '11 05:53
    Originally posted by buckky
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die on the cross for our sins. Why is this a grandfathered in as a rational concept ? Why would a God need Blood to forgive ? What was the hissy fit about in the first place ? Adam and Eve eating the stupid fruit blew it for all of humanity, and God got so ticked off that everyone was headed for Hell unt ...[text shortened]... story that seems remotely logical or good.. Primitive ideas on the nature of God is what it is.
    This is just more evidence that the Bible has been fabricated from the minds of men.

    We find in the Bible an infinite eternal God who can only have one son.

    A infinite eternal God who suffers.

    An infinite eternal God that forgives some and condemns others......although Gods love is but unconditional.

    An infinite eternal God that can only save mankind through death and blood and suffering.

    An infinite eternal God that talks to Moses of all manner of mundane politics.

    An infinite eternal loving, merciful, kind and compassionate God who sends souls to hell for eternity.

    An infinite eternal all powerful God who allows the soul to take birth once and has not the power to allow the soul to take rebirth again.

    An infinite eternal loving compassionate, merciful kind God who allows the slaughter of our lower creatures when the earth can easily supply all manner of food.

    This infinite eternal God of the Bible has been created in the small minds of superstitious unenlightened men.
  14. Jo'Burg South Africa
    Joined
    20 Mar '06
    Moves
    45439
    05 Aug '11 06:19
    Originally posted by buckky
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son to die on the cross for our sins. Why is this a grandfathered in as a rational concept ? Why would a God need Blood to forgive ? What was the hissy fit about in the first place ? Adam and Eve eating the stupid fruit blew it for all of humanity, and God got so ticked off that everyone was headed for Hell unt ...[text shortened]... story that seems remotely logical or good.. Primitive ideas on the nature of God is what it is.
    The reason why God got ticked off (I like that expression) is that ALL Adam and Eve had to do was obey God's ONE rule - to not eat the fruit. ONE rule? And they couldn't even resist?

    How God thinks is different then what we think. By reading through the Bible it is clear that a lot of animals was sacrificed for the sins of humans. Thus, God, who rules all wants blood to "wash away our sins". The ultimate sacrifice was Jesus thus no animals where sacrificed there after.

    The point is: Who is God? Does any one really know? I don't think so. But I am trying to find out who God is. I am praying to Him. I put all my trust in Him. The fact that the Bible/God/Jesus story is a fairy tale story to many humans, they are fools to look for logical and good in these things as it is just it that will not open your eyes and see . . . . . . God is creation of everything.

    Honestly, logically I can not believe that when people look at science, earth, stars and CHILDREN they can not see God in there somewhere. Are people really that fooled?
  15. Standard memberSoothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    Planet Rain
    Joined
    04 Mar '04
    Moves
    2437
    05 Aug '11 06:23
    Originally posted by Nicksten
    Honestly, logically I can not believe that when people look at science, earth, stars and CHILDREN they can not see God in there somewhere. Are people really that fooled?
    Children more often get me to thinking about Satan.
Back to Top