Forbidden fruit

Originally posted by yoctobyte
No insult taken, thought never entered my mind.

Did I imply the planet could host limitless number of people? Who knows? I don't know what would have resulted had A&E not eaten the fruit. For all I know, it may have been the two of them.

Okay, you don't want to answer my question, and therefore you avoid the question altogether. Why just not say so?
Perhaps you don't know the answer, perhaps you haven't thought about it, perhaps you don't like the consequences of it all, perhaps, well, I don't know.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

i do not set the rules regarding the heat of a flame and its effects on human skin. god did set the rules regarding what would happen if a+e ate from the tree. god could of set up any rules regarding what would happen if they ate from the tree.

You miss the point, God did point out what would happen if A&E ate of the tree.


[b]Genesis 2 ...[text shortened]... r chance? God already said what would happen if the fruit was eaten, what else is there to say?

b]You miss the point, God did point out what would happen if A&E ate of the tree.[/b]

no, you have missed the point my friend. i fully accept that god warned them what would happen, just as in the analogy i would warn a child not to put their hand in a fire. the key difference is that i did not invent fire, i did not create a system in which fire is hot and burns. god did make fire hot and did make fire burn. just as god decided what would happen if they ate the fruit. he had the power to choose any punishment or non punishment it was his decision to punish them in that way....it is not my decision to burn a childs hand if they ignore me and put it in the fire. if it were up to me the fire would not hurt the child........do you understand the difference?


Why a sit down after the fact, what could possibly be the point of such a sit down, another chance? God already said what would happen if the fruit was eaten, what else is there to say?

people make mistakes, people learn from mistakes. the best form of advancement is knowledge and education. if my child does something wrong i speak to them, i try to educate them so they can make better decisions next time. i do not punish them. what logic is there in punishing generations of humans for one mistake, especially as god built them to fail.

Originally posted by yoctobyte
If you told your kids not to place their hands in a flame or they would get burned what would that be, an arbitrary set of rules? No, I would say love!

That may be true. But it is not me that creates the consequence of a burnt fingers for the action of sticking your hand in a flame. So the analogy is not appropriate.

If, on the other hand, I told my kids not to walk through a doorway or I would hit them (not because there was any danger beyond the doorway but just because I decided I would hit them), would that still be love?

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
That may be true. But it is not me that creates the consequence of a burnt fingers for the action of sticking your hand in a flame. So the analogy is not appropriate.

If, on the other hand, I told my kids not to walk through a doorway or I would hit them (not because there was any danger beyond the doorway but just because I decided I would hit them), would that still be love?

--- Penguin

much better put, thank you penguin.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You asked me, I answered you, no insult intended.

So you really the planet can host limitless number of people? Really?

Maybe I didn't see your original objection. But this matter of over population in the plan of God is not an issue.

I told someone previously (possibly you) that with God and man in harmony and cooperation whatever is needed will be provided.

Let me put some Scripture to reinforce that -

"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32)

God manifest His great love in giving us His Son. He will with Him freely give us all things necessary for His eternal purpose for man.

" ... how shall He NOT with Him freely give us all things?"

The creation, Paul says, is eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God in full maturity:

" For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it. In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now ... we ourselves also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eageryly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:19-23)

The groaning of the Christians for a glorified and eternal body is eagerly expecting a full taste of what we presently enjoy as a foretaste. Creation awaits release from bondage and vanity inflicted upon it because of the disharmony between God and man. The Christians then are the real ultimate environmentalists in a sense.

Man restored to harmony with God is also creation's restoral to harmony with man. All is for God's eternal purpose.

You express concern for over population. You may have noticed that in the age of the new heaven and new earth it says there is no more sea. If this means no more ocean, then that is quite an encrease of land area on the planet -

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more." (Revelation 21:1)

I cannot tell you all the particulars of what WOULD have been had Adam not sinned. Nor can I really tell you all the particulars of the new heaven and the new earth where the sea is no more and the eternal city (city meaning people) of New Jerusalem and the surrounding nations occupy the planet in that age.

I don't know, WE don't know all these things. But we do see through the Bible the various results of God / Man cooperation together. At first these stories seemed to be miscellaneous and unrelated peculiarities. I definitely no longer feel that they are many unrelated and miscellaneous oddities.

The parting of the Red Sea, the healings, the manna, the astronomical miracles, the raisings from the dead, the quelling of the storms, the feeding of the thousands all testify that with the Son God is eager to supply the man of faith with all things needed for His plan.

I do not mean that God will always do the miraculous. I do not mean that we may expect in the next age God to be doing the miraculous day in and day out. I do mean to suggest that the Father KNOWS the need and will provide whatever is necessary.

We do not need to worry about "What if ... what if ... what if ... ?" We need to allow His Son to save us and His Spirit to enter us - enter our hearts in regeneration. And we need to allow the sons of God to grow, mature and be manifested.

With the Son of God - the Redeemer, the Lord, the Savior and the Elder Brother, God will give us all things.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]God warned the man and the woman to stay away from the fruit of the one tree, letting them know "Dying, you will die."

and this is my point. god had no reason to make the result of eating the fruit death, other than his desire to punish. there was nothing stopping him from choosing education as the result of eating the fruit. if adam and eve f ...[text shortened]... well-thought-out plan carries so little weight in comparison, don't you think?[/b]

what plan?[/b]

god had no reason to make the result of eating the fruit death, other than his desire to punish.
No, it was because He had money on the Broncos winning the Super Bowl.
Now, if you can reconcile my statement with yours, you'll do just fine in reconciling your statement with reality... you know: it's that thing you continue ignoring or avoiding when making dopey declarations like this.

God is life.
Outside of God, there is no life.
You come up with a better scenario which better illustrates these realities and we will all vote you as His replacement.
[hint: Satan's been trying an awful long time to do just that thing, thus far failing miserably. Good luck and Godspeed!]

if adam and eve fail the first time then god re-educates or re-designs them until they do not give in to temptation. there is no logical reason for choosing the path towards redemption god choose (or that defying god should even require redemption).
It is impossible to reason with a person on the basis of logic when they don't understand how logic works in the first place.
Even more difficult when the person involved continues to leave out key ingredients!

if god wants to adam to choose to stay then god could build him that way. god knows that we will eventually reach 'x' so why not just begin by creating the conditions the exist when 'x' is reached. why the pointless charade???
God created a scenario in which man could truly have free will and have it exist at the same time His will is being exercised.
I wouldn't call that a pointless charade by any stretch of the imagination.

what plan?
Exactly.

Originally posted by sonship
Maybe I didn't see your original objection. But this matter of over population in the plan of God is not an issue.

I told someone previously (possibly you) that with God and man in harmony and cooperation whatever is needed will be provided.

Let me put some Scripture to reinforce that -

[b]"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but deliver ...[text shortened]... of God - the Redeemer, the Lord, the Savior and the Elder Brother, God will give us all things.

Well, I'm thinking about starting a new thread with this question.

If A&E didn't eat the forbidden tree, the planet would be lifeless today. They did, therefore we all survive. Thanks god!

But wait for the thread, and we discuss it there...

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Okay, you don't want to answer my question, and therefore you avoid the question altogether. Why just not say so?
Perhaps you don't know the answer, perhaps you haven't thought about it, perhaps you don't like the consequences of it all, perhaps, well, I don't know.

What is your question?

Originally posted by yoctobyte
What is your question?

Go back some postings, and find it yourself. If you are still interested.
Or just wait for the new thread.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
b]You miss the point, God did point out what would happen if A&E ate of the tree.

no, you have missed the point my friend. i fully accept that god warned them what would happen, just as in the analogy i would warn a child not to put their hand in a fire. the key difference is that i did not invent fire, i did not create a system in which fire is ...[text shortened]... there in punishing generations of humans for one mistake, especially as god built them to fail.[/b]

he had the power to choose any punishment or non punishment it was his decision to punish them in that way

The thing is...it is not a punishment but a consequence of an action. It was spelled out a head of time what the consequence of an action would be, A&E chose not to heed the word and do what they wanted. Do you see the difference?

people make mistakes, people learn from mistakes. the best form of advancement is knowledge and education. if my child does something wrong i speak to them, i try to educate them so they can make better decisions next time.

Exactly, but if you apply the 'touching the flame' analogy the damage is already done, you can't undo it, you get burned. Can you? You touch the flame, you get burned. I am all for education, we need to learn from our mistakes, but sometimes unfortunately we suffer the consequences of our mistakes.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Go back some postings, and find it yourself. If you are still interested.
Or just wait for the new thread.

I'm good, if you can't type a few lines then I am less interested than you are. I am enjoying the conversation however.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

I'll just bring up the point I have tried to bring up before: So your god put out a forbidden fruit and Eve fell for it. So this god condemns the entire human race for the actions of one person.

First of all, [b]the human race is not condemned, sin is! and it was not a punishment from God that befell A&E, they fell because of the ...[text shortened]... rist and what he done for us, we are exhibiting our love towards God. Does that make any sense?[/b]

You are still side stepping the issue that your alleged god knew the outcome of any such trap as what it set out, snakes, Eve, whatever. It would have known well in advance the outcome so why put it there in the first place?

Like in the myth of Noah, this supposedly omniscient god destroys almost all animal life on Earth to get at a few thousand errant humans. That would show, if true, this god cares nothing for life on Earth, everything in and on it is expendable including so-called 'saved' christians.

You don't have a loving god here, what you have in fact is an experimenter who does not know the outcome of its experiments, if all that is true, which of course I seriously doubt.

Humans telling me about god, not going to happen. If a god wants to come down and tell me about god that is another story but humans are WAY too good at BS tales for me to believe ANYTHING in print or verbally.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]god had no reason to make the result of eating the fruit death, other than his desire to punish.
No, it was because He had money on the Broncos winning the Super Bowl.
Now, if you can reconcile my statement with yours, you'll do just fine in reconciling your statement with reality... you know: it's that thing you continue ignoring or avoiding when ...[text shortened]... call that a pointless charade by any stretch of the imagination.

what plan?
Exactly.[/b]

"God is life.
Outside of God, there is no life.
You come up with a better scenario which better illustrates these realities and we will all vote you as His replacement."

god is not life, without god there is life. hows that?

It is impossible to reason with a person on the basis of logic when they don't understand how logic works in the first place.
Even more difficult when the person involved continues to leave out key ingredients!

id rather you focused your energies on discussing the 'key ingredients'.


God created a scenario in which man could truly have free will and have it exist at the same time His will is being exercised.
I wouldn't call that a pointless charade by any stretch of the imagination.

nice to see you actually attempt a genuine reply. well done.
it pointless because the result of all gods plan is for humans to return to the state they were in before the fall. which is exactly the state that caused the fall......so what has changed?

what plan?
Exactly.[/b]

exactly?? your attempt to try and squeeze in as much derogatory and condescending tone into your posts as possible just looks like you are trying to hard. it never quite works and always leaves me scratching my head with a bemused look on my face.

Originally posted by Penguin
That may be true. But it is not me that creates the consequence of a burnt fingers for the action of sticking your hand in a flame. So the analogy is not appropriate.

If, on the other hand, I told my kids not to walk through a doorway or I would hit them (not because there was any danger beyond the doorway but just because I decided I would hit them), would that still be love?

--- Penguin

That may be true. But it is not me that creates the consequence of a burnt fingers for the action of sticking your hand in a flame. So the analogy is not appropriate.

Why wouldn't the analogy be appropriate. You are telling the kids ahead of time the consequence of putting fingers in the flame, they get burned. God did the same with A&E.

Now if I did not tell them the consequences of putting fingers in the flame and let them find out for themselves, that would be cruel.

If, on the other hand, I told my kids not to walk through a doorway or I would hit them (not because there was any danger beyond the doorway but just because I decided I would hit them), would that still be love?

I would say that is not love, because 'you' are inflicting the consequence for whatever reason.

Analogies are not perfect, I see them as a means to try to explain a complex concept in a simple way, nothing more. If my analogy is not appropriate, I would be interested in your understanding of the concept being discussed.

Originally posted by yoctobyte

he had the power to choose any punishment or non punishment it was his decision to punish them in that way

The thing is...it is not a punishment but a consequence of an action. It was spelled out a head of time what the consequence of an action would be, A&E chose not to heed the word and do what they wanted. Do you see the difference?
...[text shortened]... learn from our mistakes, but sometimes unfortunately we suffer the consequences of our mistakes.

The thing is...it is not a punishment but a consequence of an action. It was spelled out a head of time what the consequence of an action would be, A&E chose not to heed the word and do what they wanted. Do you see the difference?

a consequence can also be a punishment, they are not exclusive. it has to be considered a punishment because god choose the result of being disobeyed to be something negative. he choose that, it is not some sort of fixed rule of the universe. god decided that the outcome would be bad.
if decide that if a child hits another child that they will go to the naughty step, then going to the step is a consequence of their action and also a punishment for their actions. i choose the step, hypothetically i could of chosen ice-cream.

Exactly, but if you apply the 'touching the flame' analogy the damage is already done, you can't undo it, you get burned. Can you? You touch the flame, you get burned. I am all for education, we need to learn from our mistakes, but sometimes unfortunately we suffer the consequences of our mistakes

you cannot undo the burn because that is the way your god made things work. he didnt have to, he could have made burns something that could self heal. the whole point is that god has the ability to do anything, he could create a system in which humans learn a valuable lesson with out all the consequences (or punishments) that he chose. if we say that the way god did it was the only way. then we are saying god is limited.