Foundations

Originally posted by jaywill
Jake,

You empirically verified your dad's word to you that you were his son ?

Did the DNA test confirm that he had told you the truth ?

But then if you had [b]trustingly taken his word for it, you would have had the truth just the same. Am I right?[/b]

I don't have empirical evidence. But I think trusting my father and my mother and my sister and my two grandfathers and grandmothers and birth certificate is far more rational then trusting people you've never met and who may not have written the words associated with them. Especally if they lived 2000 years ago in a totally different culture, with a totally different language, and to who religion and experiences meant totally different things. Remember, they had proof religion was real. How else could you explain all the demon possesed people who today would need a mental diagnosis?

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
I don't have empirical evidence. But I think trusting my father and my mother and my sister and my two grandfathers and grandmothers and birth certificate is far more rational then trusting people you've never met and who may not have written the words associated with them. Especally if they lived 2000 years ago in a totally different culture, with a to ...[text shortened]... else could you explain all the demon possesed people who today would need a mental diagnosis?

Originally posted by KellyJay
How would you know there was a demon possesed person that needed
help or not?
Kelly

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
Because they would be acting like a schzophrenic for example. They might have multiple personality disorder. Then you'd clearly be able to tell the difference between the demon (or legion of demons) possessing someone and that person.

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I do read bits of the bible. But I will take your advice.
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Good. Glad to hear you'll do that.

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I have my last A level exams on Monday, and after that I have a lot of free time. I promise over the next few weeks I'll sit down some time and read the new testament. Not just the Gospels but at least the letters of Paul because I think in a way they are more the foundations of christianity then the gospels were.
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I am happy to hear that you are going to do some reading of the epistles of Paul for yourself.

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I will also try and get hold of that 'why I havn't got enough faith to be an atheist' book.
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As long as you read the New Testament I am happy.

The book I refered to is by Norman Geilser and Frank Turek and
published by Crossway Books.

"I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Athiest" is a good read for Christian apologetics. But it doesn't replace the Bible itself.

If you have an open mind, which you seem to have today, by all means read that book too. I want to read The Blind Watchmaker, by Evolutionist R. Dawkins.


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But I don't feel that I have to. I don't even think the passive listening I get every week is necessary. I don't think religion is necessary for my life.
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In my vocabulary "religion" is not really a positive word. You see I don't think that God is a God of religion. I think God is a God of reality.

So I don't need religion either in my life. But I do need God.

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When you speak of Jesus entering your spirit, I can't agree with you. Relgious experiences are not solely the domain of Christianity. You must accept that truth alone does not cause religion. If you think about it, prechristian times and even pre Jewish times, in fact, for the whole of human history, there have been religions. So you must accept that religions can come from humans.
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I am surprised that you would assume that I DON't believe that.

The Bible has a lot to say about the tension between the real experience of God and the religions of man.

Christ was persecuted by religion. And it was a religion based on the oracles of God. So there is plenty of things in the Bible showing the difference and opposition of religion to God in the Old Testament and religion verses Christ in the New Testament.

As for Christ entering into the human spirit - I won't go into that in this post right now.

Maybe afterwards.

Remember, Jesus was not the only holy man of the time to have miricals such as healing associated with him.

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I don't know much about Socrates, but I'm fairly sure he never did anything impossible.
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True. But you see he had an apparantly marvelous teaching.

The deeds of Jesus are not out of line with the kinds of things which He spoke. If the Bible only said that there was once this person called Jesus who walked on the water, raised the dead, healed the sick, turned water into wine, and was Himself resurrected from the dead, that I might not believe.

But the power of His wisdom make such deeds rather consistent with the power of His words.

Never did a man speak such words. Even those sent to arrest Him said that. The power of His deeds match the power of His teachings.

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So tell me. What are the implications of a belief in Jesus? If I put my trust in God, if I 'do not see and yet believe' what does that mean?
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Take for example this passage:

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gfives them life, so also the Son gives life to ewhom He wills.

For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son., in order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of dearth into life.

Truly, truly, I say to you, An hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself.

And He gave Him authority to execute judgment because He is the Son of man.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrecion of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrecion of judgment.

I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me."

John 5:21-30

If you are an athiest you are expecting to melt peacefully into the dust of the earth, There will be no recollecting of your life to God. Whatever you have done has melted away into nothing. You and your deeds pass into oblivion.

But Jesus says that all who are in the tombs will come forth to stand before God and be judged. He who believes in the Son of God will also be raised but "does not come into (eternal) judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

The atheist will be bitterly disappointed to come forth and realize that God has recorded EVERYTHING. He has forgotten NOTHING concerning what we said or did. He is so mighty that He can examine a billion people simultaneously in one moment as to their entire life's history. And this judgment the Father has placed into the hands of the Son.

So the implications of Christ's teaching in this passage extent throuth this life, into the grave after you, and through the time when you come forth from the grave and on into eternity in the future.

There is simply no getting away from the words of Jesus Christ. He teaches all to honor the Son even as they would honor the Father. Christ calls for the ultimate honor and the ultimate regard from men and women.

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Surely you find the love of Jesus a comfort. Surely you are content in the promise of eternal life. What do I have to be afraid of? If Jesus came down from heaven now and said, 'guys look over here! I'm real; look water into wine!' do you think I would be dissapointed? The point is, I don't believe. Not because I'm scared of believing, but because I simple don't see any reason why its true.
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This is why you need to read the New Testmant. You take the deeds of Jesus in ways which are kind of out of context.

For example the changing of the water into wine was a "sign"{/b]. That means it was a symbol of something else of a profound nature.

It was not a magic trick for entertainment's sake. The turning of water into wine symbolizes Christ as the One who turns death into life. If you are without God you are spiritually dead. This spiritual death will result into eternal seperation from God the Source of life.

Christ comes to change our death into eternal life. The walking death of being spiritually dead is a life of vanity. It is a life of meaninglessness and futility. Listen to many great voices of the human race.

Johannes Brahms the world great composer, died crying.

A great Queen of England said in her last moments [b]"All my possessions for a moment of time." She realized that her riches could not buy her what she longed for most, just a little more time, perhaps to set things right.

Albert Einstien died muttering something like "What is time? What is eternity? There is no time. There is no eternity." Though I don't have the direct quote I get the impression that he finally passed with the old questions still gnawing at his soul. This is sad Jake.

I was told that Alexander the Great requested that his hands be left outside the coffin when he was buried. He died of alchoholism. Though he had conquered the known world he wanted people to see that he had NOTHING in the end. His hands were empty. He wanted those who buried him to see that even the whole world left him feeling empty. What could he do but drown out the gnawing sense emptiness but drink his life away?

No, Jake I don't mean that fear alone should motivate you toward believing in Jesus. I think if you read His words you will find your own personal motivation.

Originally posted by jaywill
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I do read bits of the bible. But I will take your advice.
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Good. Glad to hear you'll do that.

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I have my last A level exams on Monday, and after that I have a lot of free time. I promise over the next few weeks I'll sit down some time an ...[text shortened]... is words you will find your own personal motivation.

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
I'm sure plenty of atheists died happy. Should fear of death motivate me to become a Christian? I don't feel alone without God, but I can see why some people would. We are socail animals. Humans hate to be alone.

All the reasons you give me are great, if we assume that they are accurate. But if Jesus was not the son of god then they are worthless. I ...[text shortened]... what he said?

I'm sorry but I can't find motivation in something that isn't true.

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you mean that you had your DNA tested to verify that your dad was your dad?

Do you mean that when you became an adult you did not trust that he had told you the truth so you elected to go have a DNA test?

Originally posted by KellyJay
How would you know there was a demon possesed person that needed
help or not?
Kelly

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I'm sure plenty of atheists died happy. Should fear of death motivate me to become a Christian? I don't feel alone without God, but I can see why some people would. We are socail animals. Humans hate to be alone.
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You can name some if you'd like.

I don't believe that there are really that many true athiests.

The Bible says that 'The fool says in his heart "There is no God".'

I don't believe that there are really that many foolish people who actually believe that there is no God. Romans says that men hold down the truth in unrighteousness.

I could be wrong but I suspect more "atheists" are excercising their will power to "hold down" the truth that they hate to admit. I don't think that they are that foolish to really hold deep in their hearts that there is no God. They WISH that there was no God. And wish it very strongly.


But concerning motivation, I did say that you would find your own upon hearing the message of Christ.

For me, if I am going to be a human being I have to be a follower of Jesus. Only in Jesus is the scope of my existence so broad and so free. Without exception all of man's philosophies are more restricting and narrow and basically not very fair.

Take example arguments that I should not follow Jesus because I don't have a video recorder of His life. That would make the way of salvation very narrow.

Or say I should not follow Jesus because I don't know enough about Greek language, Roman Politics, Textural Criticism, Church History, Western Culture, Freudian Psychotherapy, Evolution, Biology, Astrophysics, Sociology, etc.

All the intricate reasons skeptic give for me to doubt the night Jesus came into my life are all restrictions on God's way "Whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal life"

Man's way is invariably more restrictive, more elite, more narrow, more subject to artificial standards of intellectualism.

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All the reasons you give me are great, if we assume that they are accurate. But if Jesus was not the son of god then they are worthless.
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I agree. If He is not Son of God the gospel is worthless. If He is not raised from the dead, the gospel is worthless.

I agree with this.

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I could claim to be the son of god and that wouldn't make it true.
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Or you could claim so and leave a cataclysmic impact on human history such that history itself were divided into BC and AD. Then some people might be willing to think on it a bit.

If there was a Son of God who walked upon the earth, who among all human beings would you say is the most likely candidate to have been
such a Son of God?

I would say that Jesus of Nazareth is the most likely one I know to have been such a Son of God if there is one. I don't think anyone else comes close, thought there are a lot of impressive people.


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You havn't even mentioned his last words (before he died) even though I've mentioned them twice. Can you tell me what he said?
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Ah, I leave that to you to discover. You have many days of fascinating reading ahead of you.

You have to do some of the work now Jake. Have fun.

Originally posted by jaywill
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I'm sure plenty of atheists died happy. Should fear of death motivate me to become a Christian? I don't feel alone without God, but I can see why some people would. We are socail animals. Humans hate to be alone.
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You can name some if you'd like.

I don't believe tha ...[text shortened]... g ahead of you.

You have to do some of the work now Jake. Have fun.[/b]

Originally posted by Jake Ellison
'It is finnished.'
'My God why have you forsaken me.'
'Into your hands lord I comend my spirit.'

Talk about multi tasking...

I don't see any reason why anyone who believes in God should wish he didn't exist. Who would say no to eternal bliss? Seems like a flimsy argument.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Likewise. How do you know YOU are not a demon acting against God?


Two can play that game, Kelly.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yep, I can give reasons for my beliefs I was wondering what his were.
Kelly