1. Standard membervivify
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    10 Mar '15 16:364 edits
    When asked questions like "Why doesn't God stop small children from getting raped?", the response is always "Why God is too good stop a person's free will". This is dumb for many reasons. One reason why is because God is always manipulating a person's free will. He did it to Pharaoh more than once:



    Exodus 9:12

    12 And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

    Exodus 10:1

    10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

    Exodus 10:27

    27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

    Exodus 11:10

    10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

    Exodus 14:8

    8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.


    Five separate instances on just one person. But God has also manipulated the free will of entire cities:



    Joshua 11:19-20

    19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.


    In the above, God manipulated the free will of an entire city of people, just to have an excuse to "destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy". This is evil, because God could've made those entire cities love the Jews. God had already done this in Egypt....more than once:

    Exodus 11:3

    3 (The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh’s officials and by the people.)

    Exodus 12:36

    36 The Lord had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.



    So while God is manipulating the free will of Pharaoh, he's also manipulating the free will of the Egyptians...meaning that God could've manipulated Pharaoh's heart so that he let them go, thereby avoiding an excuse for the mass suffering and killings that happened.

    Christians need to stop using the "free will" argument, because it's all bull. The reason why God didn't intervene to stop millions from dying horrific deaths during the Holocaust or at the hands of Vlad the Impaler isn't because of caring about "free will", but because:

    a) God didn't care enough about suffering people to stop it, or
    b) The Christian God doesn't exist.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    10 Mar '15 16:544 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    When asked questions like "Why doesn't God stop small children from getting raped", the response is always "Why God is too good stop a person's free will". This is dumb for many reasons. One reason why is because God is always manipulating a person's free will. He did it to Pharaoh more than once:


    I would say that God does at times stop small children from being harmed.
    But God does not always do the same thing in the same way to everyone.

    If God was only the God of people who had never been harmed as children, then what about those who WERE harmed as children? They would have to say -


    "God, you let that happen to me. You cannot be MY God. You are the God of fortunate people who did not have anything bad happen to them a children.

    But for me, I am just left out. There can be no divine help from You for my case.


    No. God is the God of children who He SAVED from being harmed.
    But He also must demonstrate that He can be the God of those who underwent some harm.

    Who of us ... WHO of us did not undergo SOMETHING that we could say "God you should not have even ALLOWED that to happen." ?

    No one is without SOME calamity or misfortune that befell them.
    Jesus Christ shows Himself able to help those who had something low happen to them. And Jesus shows Himself the Savior of those who had something even lower happen. And He is the Savior of those who had something even lower still happen to them.

    Jesus Christ can ALWAYS come UNDERNEATH you and lift you no matter how low the thing happened. He is not just the Savior of those who had a comfortable and fortunate childhood.

    He is the Lord and Savior of the one whose mother died, whose father walked out, who were abused by a relative and even may have been raped.

    While we pray and hope that such evils will not occur, sometimes by God's sovereignty they will occur. Don't say God never stopped something bad from happening. If that were the case PRAYER would be useless for our children, for OTHER children.

    He can reach down to the lowest pit and be the Savior.
    We are appalled that any child would be raped. We would do all we can that in our circle such would not happen. But some bad things WILL nevertheless happen to all of us.

    Jesus is still the Savior to us too if __________ happened to us as children.
  3. Standard membervivify
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    10 Mar '15 17:021 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    I would say that God does at times stop small children from being harmed.
    But God does not always do the same thing in the same way to everyone.
    If God is all-powerful, then no one needs to be harmed, ever.
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    10 Mar '15 17:072 edits
    Originally posted by vivify

    Exodus 9:12

    12 And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

    Exodus 10:1

    10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them

    Exodus 10:27

    27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

    Exodus 11:10

    10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

    Exodus 14:8

    8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.


    Five separate instances on just one person. But God has also manipulated the free will of entire cities:


    Well, you do have something of a strong case there with Pharoah. And thanks for the passages.

    But do you have ALL of the case ? Give me some time in Exodus to consider, because I don't think you included all the passages.

    I'll take up some challenge on this. However, free-will and predestination is such an old paradox which minds have contemplated for over a thousand or two years, I don't think it will be settled on this Forum this week.
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    10 Mar '15 17:182 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    If God is all-powerful, then no one needs to be harmed, ever.
    One thing at a time for now.

    I know that history is MOVING in the direction of a new heaven and new earth in which there is no harm, no tears, no death, no sin, no rebellion, no lies, and perfect harmony among people, nations, with abundance and bounty and harmony.

    Revelation 21 and 22 show that that is where history is going.
    The universe is moving in that direction that you object pointedly - "It SHOULD be that way NOW if God is God!"


    So we believers know that we have a rendezvous coming with the world that you argue should have always been and should be right now.

    Now it is not easy for us to understand WHY there should be this TIME matter in which God is working TOWARD that world. And we may complain that such a world should have come OUT of the shoot from His creation to begin with and never should have had any problem.

    You have a point, but with incomplete knowledge. But at least we see for His own profound reasons He is WORKING His will and eternal purpose TOWARDS that end in which only ONE will will prevail. And that is the WILL of GOD.

    You see what you are arguing for is "the will of God". For reasons which I admit, are not easy to comprehend or explain "the will of God" was not always agreed to by even His highest creatures. And to work out the unstoppable nature of "the will of God" there is this span of TIME in which the forces opposing "the will of God" are exposed, defeated and triumphed over.

    Make no mistake about it though. What you speak of is the will of God. Revelation 21 and 22 demonstrate that this is the climax and finale of all His work in man.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    10 Mar '15 17:381 edit
    If God is all-powerful, then no one needs to be harmed, ever.


    But does "all powerful" mean that we are robots?

    There is the matter of TIME in which God works His will. It comes to a climax. It comes to a consummation.

    That consummation is seen in the last two chapters of the Bible Revelation 21,22. We know it is coming. We know every kind of obstacle and barrier TO its coming God seems to overcome throughout history.

    We see that we can postpone it but cannot stop it from arriving.

    And we know that for THIS ultimate expression of His will He even created the universe.

    "Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love. Predestinating us unto sonship though Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-6)

    The world you speak of is the world of men and women being made holy. It is the world of people being "without blemish" and before God their Father "in love" .

    The world you speak of is the world of sons of God having the life and nature of God. This is the world of Jesus the Son of God being mass-produced into many sons of God.

    As Jesus said He came to die for - a duplication of sons of God like Himself for a collective and corporate expression of God and man as one -

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)


    The world of Revelation 21,22 is the world not of ONE grain. But it is the one grain having died to produce much fruit - many grains. One Son of God to die for redemption to produce many sons.

    "Having predestinated us unto sonship through Jesus Christ ...."

    Do all have to receive the life of a son of God?
    Will all be coerced against their will to receive the life of a son of God?
    Suppose there are some creatures of God who do not want to have anything to do with God as Father ?

    There has to be a place for them too.
    It will not be a good place.
    But it is a place off, away, apart from the highest Blessing, highest Good, Eternal life.

    That is not His fault is all positive blessing is intrinsically wrapped up in Himself. And if you wish to follow some great leader like the Devil into a dynamic withdrawal away from the Source of all life and blessing, though you won't like the result, you can pursue that course if you really want it.

    In the meantime some of us are receiving this new birth; receiving this salvation; receiving this indwelling of the Spirit of the Son of God into our spirit by faith.

    "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."
  7. Standard membersonship
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    10 Mar '15 17:41
    God's eternal purpose is to WORK Himself into us.

    Being saved and being born again is the beginning of God WORKING Himself into us.

    God's purpose is to WROUGHT Himself into His people.
    Being born again by inviting Jesus Christ into your heart, is the beginning of God the Father WROUGHTING Himself INTO you.
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    10 Mar '15 20:41
    Originally posted by sonship
    When asked questions like "Why doesn't God stop small children from getting raped", the response is always "Why God is too good stop a person's free will". This is dumb for many reasons. One reason why is because God is always manipulating a person's free will. He did it to Pharaoh more than once:


    I would say that God does at times st ...[text shortened]... Jesus is still the Savior to us [b]too
    if __________ happened to us as children.[/b]
    No. God is the God of children who He SAVED from being harmed.
    But He also must demonstrate that He can be the God of those who underwent some harm.


    oh, well thats okay then. im sure all the little children enduring night after night of brutal sexual abuse can rest easy knowing that gods demonstrating that he's cool being the god of abused people.
    a good indication of being morally lost is when you find yourself justifying turning a blind eye to child abuse.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    10 Mar '15 23:56
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    [b]No. God is the God of children who He SAVED from being harmed.
    But He also must demonstrate that He can be the God of those who underwent some harm.


    oh, well thats okay then. im sure all the little children enduring night after night of brutal sexual abuse can rest easy knowing that gods demonstrating that he's cool being the god of abused ...[text shortened]... n of being morally lost is when you find yourself justifying turning a blind eye to child abuse.[/b]
    Don't be ridiculous. He's not supporting child abuse, nor is he "turning a blind eye" to it.

    Is that really what you got from his post?
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Mar '15 01:121 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    If God is all-powerful, then no one needs to be harmed, ever.
    But then, there goes free-will for everyone. 😏
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    11 Mar '15 05:344 edits
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    oh, well thats okay then. im sure all the little children enduring night after night of brutal sexual abuse can rest easy knowing that gods demonstrating that he's cool being the god of abused people.
    a good indication of being morally lost is when you find yourself justifying turning a blind eye to child abuse.


    This is basically an argument for Atheism on the grounds of the occurrence of evil things. Its that with an accusation that the Christian is "turning a blind eye" because he doesn't join the atheist to argue that the occurrence of horrendous crimes prove that God does not exist.

    While the argument for the nonexistence of God because evil things happened to children is a difficult argument for me, it does not persuade me of atheism. Nor does it insist I turn a blind eye to moral wrong.

    But it is a difficult objection for many theists. At the same time we cannot turn a "blind eye" to the thousands of personal testimonials of people who are still lovers of Jesus Christ in spite of the fact that they could point to very bad things that happened to them OR that they themselves DID.

    If your "Non-existence of God Because of Evil Things" argument were really irrefutably valid, you might have NO people who claim they found strength and enduring comfort in the deepest recesses of their being because of Jesus Christ [i[in spite[/i] of the fact they had very unhappy and even horrendous experiences as children.

    Lastly, I may know more about the matter than you do.
    And if you were a man who had a powerful and effective prayer life, instead of sitting back in your moralizing atheist rocking chair accusing God and Christians, you could be being used by the God to rescue many children from dangers.

    But you're so occupied with contempt for faith and God that you have no effective prayer life and are completely unavailable to the all seeing God to stand in the gap, preventing some of this evil.

    My wife and I have custody of two children whose backround was abusive. Because we know what can happen, and we are able to petition God, we know that we are available to Him to rescue and reduce some of the misfortunes befalling children.

    When you arrive before the judgment of God, you'll have nothing but slanders against Him as excuses why you weren't available to Him as we were.

    You're the one turning not a blind eye but a gaping accusatory eye because the suffering of children is only useful to you for a handy excuse to reject God from being Lord in your life.

    The utter shame will be yours - atheist, unless open your eyes to the darkness of your own warring against Jesus Christ and His Father.

    I tremble knowing that no one is getting away with anything (Rev. 20).
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    11 Mar '15 05:475 edits
    im sure all the little children enduring night after night of brutal sexual abuse can rest easy knowing that gods demonstrating that he's cool being the god of abused people.


    Do you think your Atheist philosophy encourages the murder of unborn children by the millions in a free society or more discourages it ?

    I think your atheism does more than turn a blind eye to the suffering of some children. I think your atheism furnishes fertile ground for people to discount the dignity of unborn human life so as to feel OK to terminate life through abortion.

    How many militant Atheists get in trouble for encouraging women to walk away from a Planned Parenthood Clinic ?


    Jeff Durbin preaching at an Abortion Mill

    YouTube

    YouTube
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    11 Mar '15 09:39
    Originally posted by vivify
    When asked questions like "Why doesn't God stop small children from getting raped?", the response is always "Why God is too good stop a person's free will". This is dumb for many reasons. One reason why is because God is always manipulating a person's free will. He did it to Pharaoh more than once:

    [quote][b]

    Exodus 9:12

    12 And the Lord hardened Ph ...[text shortened]... od didn't care enough about suffering people to stop it, or
    b) The Christian God doesn't exist.
    the christian god is not the god portrayed in the old testament. anyone saying otherwise doesn't understand what christianity does.
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    11 Mar '15 09:48
    Originally posted by vivify
    If God is all-powerful, then no one needs to be harmed, ever.
    where do you draw the line?

    is it at children getting cancer? children getting measles? children getting a mild cough?

    how about poverty? how about hunger? must god fix those too?

    someone stealing from me is harming me. must he fix that too? won't the thief be harmed in the process?

    it's easy to ask someone else to magically solve your problems.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    11 Mar '15 10:02
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Don't be ridiculous. He's not supporting child abuse, nor is he "turning a blind eye" to it.

    Is that really what you got from his post?
    So your god allows small children to be raped or killed specifically so the perp will get justice? Why not stop the injustice first? The child in this case is just a pawn in your god's game?
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