From the Law to Grace

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The major change I see is this: "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

Very interesting but my question about "change" is: Has there has been a change in the morality of killing gays?

Originally posted by @fmf
Very interesting but my question about "change" is: Has there has been a change in the morality of killing gays?

The only change that I see is about who has the right to throw the first stone.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also."
Matthew 5:38

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The only change that I see is about who has the right to throw the first stone.

So, with that in your mind, and in answer to the question 'Has there has been a change in the morality of killing gays?' does that mean your answer is yes, there has been a change, or no, there hasn't been a change in the morality of killing gays?

Originally posted by @fmf
So, with that in your mind, and in answer to the question 'Has there has been a change in the morality of killing gays?' does that mean your answer is yes, there has been a change, or no, there hasn't been a change in the morality of killing gays?

We have discussed the morality of killing gays before, I refer you back to those discussions.

PS: Nice when you're on the receiving end, isn't it?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
We have discussed the morality of killing gays before, I refer you back to those discussions.

PS: Nice when you're on the receiving end, isn't it?

Your risible inability to admit that you are blatantly wrong says a lot about you, your lack of integrity and emotional immaturity.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
PS: Nice when you're on the receiving end, isn't it?

You're not getting it right. I'm not trolling you about the subject of morality. In fact, I'm giving you the time of day.

Originally posted by @sonship
It is difficult to answer only with an unqualified YES or and unqualfied NO.

[b]" ... He stood up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." (v.7)

.

The unbeliever in Christ does not believe that the "He" in this sentence is God.
The believer such as myself ...[text shortened]... e ultimate moral Governor alone have the authority to do - condemn or forgive sinners." [/quote][/b]

TYPO:

I meant to write -

He seems to have done so by causing them to realize that they [were] [NOT] qualified to judge. They were NOT forgiven yet and still guilty of their own sins.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
"Why does it appear to be good and right to obey Leviticus 20:10 in the OT but not not good and right to obey it in this instance?"



I wish you luck sir answering that.

Me:

"Why does it appear to be good and right to obey Leviticus 20:10 in the OT but not not good and right to obey it in this instance?"

You:

I wish you luck sir answering that.

I am trying to generate more light here than simply heat. The question above is a good one. if anyone is interested in more than "gotcha!" debate, i think they should recognize its not answered too simply.

God in the law of Moses specified a capital execution.
God also in the law of Moses specified offerings to atone for sins and avoid execution, "the sin offering, the peace offering, the trespass offering."

God in the New Testament has no instructions for the church to carry out capital punishment.
God does mention many of the same sins as "worthy of death" still.
God establishes a universal atonement and reconciliation through faith in Jesus Christ.

"For the love of Christ constrains us because we have judged this, that One died for all therefore all died." (2 Cor. 5:14)

Has God changed the rightness and wrongness of the sins?
I don't think so.

Has God changed the rightness or wrongness of saints carrying out capital punishments?
Maybe so.

Has God changed the manner in which a transgressor of His law may be redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God ?
No, but Yes.

Jesus Christ is the final universal offering that ALL the animal offerings in the OT symbolically pointed TO.

My burden here is to discuss From Law to Grace.

Originally posted by @sonship
Me:

"Why does it appear to be good and right to obey Leviticus 20:10 in the OT but not not good and right to obey it in this instance?"

You:

I wish you luck sir answering that.

I am trying to generate more light here than simply heat. The question above is a good one. if anyone is interested in more than "gotcha!" d ...[text shortened]... s in the OT symbolically pointed TO.

My burden here is to discuss [b]From Law to Grace.[/b]

"Has God changed the rightness or wrongness of saints carrying out capital punishments? Maybe so."



Sorry to add to your burden sir, but how does your 'maybe so' fit in with James 1:17:

'Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.'


Seems to me that this thread is full of stuff that is underpinned by 'variation and shifting shadow.'

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
"Has God changed the rightness or wrongness of saints carrying out capital punishments? Maybe so."

Sorry to add to your burden sir, but how does your 'maybe so' fit in with James 1:17:

'Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.' to me that this thread is full of stuff that is underpinned by 'variation and shifting shadow.'

I would say that we have here more of a case of seeing in a mirror "darkly" or "obscurely" - somewhat less than with absolute clarity.

"For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at the that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time, I will fully know even as also I was fully known." (1 Cor. 13:12)

Here is is not a matter of God changing. It is a matter more of HOW much clarity WE are able to have in looking into revelation.

The law was a child-conductor leading His people to faith in Christ.
It doesn't say that God is changing what is an unchanging righteous standard.

This is also reminiscent to me of Proverbs 4:18 where the path of the righteous is compared to the ever continually rising sun, with more and more light.

" ... the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, Which shines brighter and brighter until the full day."

We should submit ourselves to God at the level of enlightenment that He allows us.
Having received light from God, we should walk in THAT light that He has afforded us.

We can expect that the truth will grow brighter and brighter as we walk in obedience.
I'll comment more on the James passage below.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Your risible inability to admit that you are blatantly wrong says a lot about you, your lack of integrity and emotional immaturity.

You think I am blatantly wrong that the Bible provides an absolute reference point that ought to govern our morality in terms of stipulating what is right and wrong. Ok. You think everyone can decide for themselves what is right and wrong and we can ignore what the Bible says on how we should live. Fine. What boggles the mind is why you believe anything in the Bible at all when you ignore everything it has to say on how we ought to live. Or is it simply a matter of you nitpicking?

A little more on the undeniable "moral code" nature of the law of Moses.

It is not exhaustive in that it consists of a trillion trillion commandments covering every conceivable human psychological and physical reaction.

The Bible is 66 books. There are many exhortations in the Bible. But we cannot say that the Bible has commands and instructions for every possible ethical decisions.

This impracticality of the written word of God may give rise to some to argue that it cannot then be the ultimate standard of morality.

IE. The Bible said nothing per se about crack cocaine, spamming, sexting, seat belts, robo calls, whistling at women, radiation, messing up the ozone layer, and many things.

Some would believe that the Bible cannot be the ultimate decider of right and wrong because of the advancement of technology. Others would say it cannot be so because human experience is too flexible and varied. A book telling everyone how to live would have to be millions of times larger than the 66 books of the Bible.

All this does not make atheism more logical.
All this does not mean that God could not speak of His ultimate standard of righteousness.

And most importantly, these limitations do not mean that a perfect Person could not be manifested in history living on the earth. I believe that we definitely have a divine moral code in the law of Moses, authored by God and given to the Israel.

God says that no living human being has innocent measured up against it.
God says and history argues that ONE man only possessed a moral perfection which place Him beyond the conviction of the law - Jesus Christ.

That is why Jesus Christ is a bother to many people. That is why many people would rather not have to hear about Christ or hear His words. The law of Moses exposes us. But even more the Person of Christ exposes us. But He came as the Great Physician and a Friend of Sinners.

He came to save us from the curse of the law. The law of Moses is good. But because of the indwelling sin nature this righteous law of God has become a curse to us.

" Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf, because it is written, Cursed is every one hanging on a tree. " (Galatians
3:13)

And He died as a curse on His cross in order that we might be bought out from under the condemnation of God's law and might receive Christ Himself in the form of the Holy Spirit, to learn to live a new way, by the grace of Christ. This blessing was promised by God long ago and called "the blessing of Abraham".

Now look at the passage again with its continuation.

"Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf, because it is written, Cursed is every one hanging on a tree, (v.13)

IN ORDER THAT the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (v.14)

Originally posted by @vivify
a) Is it correct to say that your conscience doesn't object God ordaining the stoning of gays?

b) You still haven't given an actual tangible reason to oppose homosexuality. This is the point I'd like you to understand: none exists. Therefore, it makes no sense to appose homosexuality.

a) Is it correct to say that your conscience doesn't object God ordaining the stoning of gays?

Yes, I would loath to carry out a stoning.

1.) This theocratic nation of Israel after the Exodus was commanded some things which were a kind of once in history event. They should not all be generalized as the standard law for every time and every nation.

2.) I don't see an execution of gays in that overall general sense. I see commanded and execution for two men attempting to have sex with each other.

3.) As a new testament believer I take into account Christ's further teaching that all have sinned. In condemning another I condemn myself. Remember how effectively He told the religious crowd

"He who is without sin among you let him be the first to cast a stone at her." (John 8:7)

This representative Old Testament law of stoning a woman caught in adultery serves as an example for any execution from the law of Moses. The crowd is caused to self examine their own lives.

In this way the New Testament is far greater a document instructing each person to start with themselves first in the realization of guilt before God. This is the groundwork needed to bring all to the saving grace of the Savior Jesus Christ.

So these are some of the factors which would certainly arrest any assumption that I should stone anyone. There also is absolutely no instructions about the churching people of the new covenant carrying out executions terminating physical life.

b) You still haven't given an actual tangible reason to oppose homosexuality. This is the point I'd like you to understand: none exists. Therefore, it makes no sense to appose homosexuality.

I think it damages humanity in that it is warped against nature.
I said that like greedy unbridled heterosexual lust it too is a form of idolatry.

When you get obsessed like "I want what I want what I want" beyond any sober self control, you have created an idol. This can be done with many things. Man has to have self control. Since we are short of it to varying degrees we need the salvation of Jesus Christ living in us. This is called the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace we might say is the enjoyment of God being for us whatever we need.
If there is a lack - God Himself comes in to meet the lack based on what God IS.

The mention of grace finds its way in so many letters of Paul.
Read them. You'll be blessed I believe.

" GRACE to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (1:3)

"GRACE to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 1:2)

"GRACE to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 1:3)

I use to think phrases like this was just some pleasant sounding formality. Then I begin to no longer take them for granted. They are absolutely crucial. They are a reminder that the Triune God in man can be all that man requires and needs to live the God pleasing and proper human life.

"The GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you." (2 Cor. 13:14)

Not just flowery words here. Vital and critical realization - God living in man supplies man bountifully with whatever man needs to live and to live together!

"The GRACE of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." ( Gal. 6:10)

Grace is God Himself implanted DEEP into your innermost being when you become saved in Jesus Christ. Grace is the enjoyment of Jesus Christ something like the power steering of a well made automobile. Just a little coordination and the added power guides and steers that machine so effectively.

There are many, many more passages on grace. Note that it is the last concluding and final subject of the entire 66 books of the Bible !

"The GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints. Amen." (Rev. 22:21)