Gehenna and the defeated Christian

Originally posted by sonship
My subject from which I hope not to be highjacked is the sobering one of [b]"Gehenna and the defeated Christian"

Jesus now expands the matter of stumbling others in Matthew 18:6,7 to the danger of stumbling oneself.

Verse 8 - "If your hand or your foot stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you."

The "you" in th ...[text shortened]... that the punishment Jesus describes here has to be temporary and dispensational.[/b]

If readers have been paying close attention perhaps two questions should arise at this point.

1.) Does Jesus really expect His disciples to have foot, or hand, or eye amputated ?

2.) If Jesus is warning His disciples about being put into the eternal fire how can I say this punishment is temporary ?

No one objected so I raise my own important questions along the way.
Maybe at the end of the discussion I will admit to one point that I have not yet been able to solve.

But review now. Matthew 18:1-9:

1.) Spoken to His disciples in response the question who is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens.

2.) Warned to enter into the kingdom only by way of turning and becoming like little children.

3.) Once entered one must continue to be as a little child. Such a one is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens.

4.) The disciples receive Christ when they receive such a humbled believer.

5.) It is a serious matter to cause the stumbling of such a humbled believer. To do so could be more serious than to have a millstone tied to your neck as you are tossed into the sea to drown.

6.) Not only to stumble the fellow believer is serious but even to stumble yourself as a believer is serious. It would be more profitable to enter the kingdom minus a body part than thrown with it into the Gehenna of fire which is also called the eternal fire.

We are now at verse 10.

A little pasting for time's sake.

Verse 8 says, "If your hand or your foot stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you." Who does "you" refer to here? In verses 3 through 7, "you" refers to the disciples who asked the question in verse 1. After the Lord Jesus answered them, He told them to be watchful and not to stumble others. The Lord's words in verse 8 are directed at the same people. If a hand or a foot stumbles you, it is better to cut it off and cast it away. Of course, this need not be taken literally. If your hands steal and your feet walk in improper paths, that is, if there is sin and lust in you, you must deal with them. "It is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire" (v. 8).

The Lord shows us that if Christians tolerate sin, they will suffer either the casting into the eternal fire with both hands and both feet, or the entering into life with one hand or one foot. This shows us clearly that there are those who deal with their sins and lusts in this age and who will enter into the kingdom with one hand or one foot. There are also those who will leave their lusts unchecked and will be cast into the eternal fire. The fire is an eternal fire, but it does not say that they will remain in the eternal fire forever. What the Lord Jesus did not say is as significant as what He did say. If a person has become a Christian but his hands or feet sin all the time, he will suffer the punishment of the eternal fire in the kingdom of the heavens. He will not suffer this punishment eternally, but will suffer it only in the age of the kingdom.

What does it mean to cut off a hand or a foot? When a man cuts off his hand or foot, he can still sin. If he does not have a foot, he can travel by car. If one of his hands is cut off, he can still sin with the other hand. It is not necessarily the Lord's intention that we cut off a hand or foot, for even if we do cut off a hand, we still cannot remove our lust. Therefore, this word must not refer to the outward body, but to the inward lust. What we have to cut off is that which drives us to sin.

From The Collected Works of Watchman Nee - The Gospel of God - Volume 2

Cont. from above from "Collected Works of Watchman Nee - The Gospel of God, Vol. 2

Following this, verse 9 says, "And if your eye stumbles you, pluck it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be cast into the Gehenna of fire." This shows us that if a saved person does not deal with his lust, he will not be able to enter into life, but will go into eternal fire. The eternal fire here is the Gehenna of fire. The Bible shows us that a Christian has the possibility of suffering the Gehenna of fire. Although he can suffer the Gehenna of fire, he cannot suffer it forever. He can only suffer it during the age of the kingdom.

The sober teaching of Matthew 18 is that the believer in Christ has to deal with the motive of his sin seriously.

This should cause the believer to draw close to Jesus. Only by turning to the victorious Christ within can the motive of sin be dealt with at any cost.

The sinning eye and the sinning foot or hand are the members of the body. The Apostle Paul pioneered in the Christian life. He was one who blazed the trail through the overcoming Christian experience that we all could learn from him.

Romans chapter 8 say that by the Holy Spirit the believer may put to death the practices of the body.

"For if you live according to the flesh, you are about to die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Rom. 8:13)

This is Paul's exhortation out of his personal experience of Christian victory. We must utilize the Holy Spirit to put to death the practices of the sinning members of our body to live the divine life on earth.

By the Spirit, put to death the practices of the body shows the necessity to depend upon the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The physical cutting of the foot which wonders towards the pornography section, or amputating the sinful eye which delights to gaze on what it should not lust after, or the slicing off of the sinning hand will not do.

But the motive of such sinning in the Christian must be dealt with seriously or one may be in danger of being burned in the Gehenna of fire when Jesus establishes His kingdom on earth.

The believer must turn to the Lord and enjoy Christ. She must turn to the Holy Spirit and set the mind upon the Spirit. In this way the Christian can utilize the Holy Spirit to put to death that sinning motive and sanctify that sinning member.

Paul against says to put to death the members which are on the earth in this way:

"Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry..." (Colossians 3:5)

Notice Paul mentions the physical members in terms of the sins which they do - "your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion ... etc."

But there is something more. There is something which is indispensable which preceeds this. We will see that in another post.

So you are a Christian. And you have heard that no one can pluck you from the Father's hand. You have heard that you have eternal life and that you shall not perish. You have the assurance of salvation (regardless of what someone like Rajk999 says).

Yet there are some troubling passages in the New Testament. There are some strange passages. You want to say "Oh that was just for the Jews."

It is not too hard to see that when Jesus comes back there will be some rewards of different degree. Let us say there will be some very very great rewards, some great rewards, some rewards and some may lose their reward. That is they are saved forever but for some disciplinary reason do not receive a reward during the millennial kingdom.

It only takes a little more diligence to see the other side. Some believers will not only lose a reward but be punished some. Others will be punished a little more, others heavier punishing, and some others very heavy punishing, and others burned in the Gehenna of fire for being so defeated.

It is quite logical with the Righteous Judge. The scope of what He will do with His own children spans the scope from one end to the other end embracing an entire array of consequences that a believer may face.

This thread is about the extreme negative end. Some of the Christians who tolerated sinning after being saved may be put into the Gehenna of fire. Thus the Lord's warning to His own followers in Matthew 18.

We need the Holy Spirit to deliver us. We need to enjoy something else besides sinning. We literally must learn under temptation to enjoy the Holy Spirit instead. Only by turning to a deeper enjoyment can the tempted Christian put to death the sinning practices of the body.

The believer has Christ the Victor living within. We have Jesus the Overcomer living within. And through His indwelling grace we can "reign in life".

Now some may say that this is a teaching about Purgatory.

No this is not Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory of Catholicism is a disciplining in Hades after the death of some believer during the church age. The concoction was made so that indulgences paid to the church might shorten the time one is in Purgatory.

This was a concept developed from these verses but wrongly understood and wrongly taken advantage of for financial gain.

The weight of the evidence in Matthew 18 and other places is that Jesus is talking about a dealing with some believers after His second coming. This is not therefore a teaching of Purgatory during the church age by some Christians who are dead.

Rather Matthew 18 concerns the punishing part of Christ's second coming during the millennial kingdom. And that kingdom follows His second coming. This can be proved in another post to the point, I think, that it cannot be refuted.

Originally posted by sonship
Now some may say that this is a teaching about Purgatory.

No this is not Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory of Catholicism is a disciplining in Hades after the death of some believer [b]during the church age. The concoction was made so that indulgences paid to the church might shorten the time one is in Purgatory.

This was a concept developed from th ...[text shortened]... nd coming. This can be proved in another post to the point, I think, that it cannot be refuted.[/b]

If you met a girl called Gehenna would you dump her?

Originally posted by sonship
Now some may say that this is a teaching about Purgatory.

No this is not Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory of Catholicism is a disciplining in Hades after the death of some believer [b]during the church age. The concoction was made so that indulgences paid to the church might shorten the time one is in Purgatory.

This was a concept developed from th ...[text shortened]... nd coming. This can be proved in another post to the point, I think, that it cannot be refuted.[/b]

Purgatory by any other name smells just as stink Jaywill.

Your doctrines are first of all [after I did some research] the works of a cult leader. So as I previously mentioned you are no better than the JWs.

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

The only troubling verses I find are these...

1 Thess 4:3-8
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
NKJV

"The Lord is the "avenger" of such, is what we are not told in detail of what may transpire.

No, I did not believe Jesus was literally saying cut off a hand or foot, but was making a strong point concerning sin.

The only troubling verses I find are these...

1 Thess 4:3-8
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
NKJV

"The Lord is the "avenger" of such, is what we are not told in detail of what may transpire.

No, I did not believe Jesus was literally saying cut off a hand or foot, but was making a strong point concerning sin.

This verse tell the young Christians in Thessalonika what the will of God is. It also reminds them that they were forewarned. And testimony was given to them concerning the matter.

You are right that the avenging by God is not specifically detailed here. The culture and atmosphere of immorality was probably so strong in that ancient city that Paul had to speak like this.

Our escape is only in the indwelling Spirit of Christ who is in our spirit. We have to turn to that realm and abide in our regenerated spirit where Christ the Overcomer is.

John says that "everything" that has been begotten of God overcomes the world -

" For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world except hom who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." (1 John 5:4,5)

If we are Christians our innermost part of our being, our human spirit has been begotten of God. The regenerated spirit that is united with the Holy Spirit is the part of us which overcomes the world. So we must turn to our spirit where we touch Christ.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) shows that our human spirit has been joined to the Lord Jesus so that Christ and our innermost spiritual being are united. No wonder this "everything" which has been begotten of God and "joined to the Lord" overcomes the world.

So we must not fall into the trap of gritting our teeth and trying to resist temptations in our natural religious or ethical zeal. That will not work and will likely backfire. But we have to have faith that the Son of God is joined to our innermost spirit - Jesus Christ is in us. And we call on Him -

"O Lord Jesus. You are the Son of God and You live in Me. O Lord Jesus You handle this Lord. O Lord Jesus, I turn to my spirit where You are Lord. Praise the Lord, Lord You overcome the world."

This is an enjoyment to contact Christ in this way. The greater enjoyment will swallow up the lesser enjoyment - that enjoyment of sinning which only results in death and self condemnation afterwards.

This is why I said we have to enjoy something else. We have to enjoy calling on the Lord Jesus bring our mind into His presence. Actually we should learn to linger in this realm and walk in this realm. If we only wait to be in trouble to turn to the Lord Jesus it will not work too well. But if we log more time in the Spirit as we abide in Him, we will be overcoming in Him.

Notice also Paul talked about those who do not know God. John says a similar thing. That is that if we practice sinning we have not seen God and do not know God. It is subjective and experiencial.

"Everyone who abides in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him." (1 John 3:6)

This is not too doctrinal but experience related. We have to pray "Lord Jesus I turn to my spirit that I may see You. Lord Jesus I turn to the Lord that I may know you."

This is also not a purely individualistic matter. But if we turn for the sake of not only ourselves but for the other members of Christ's body which we know and love we express our love for them by our abiding in Christ and overcoming. Notice the context:

"In this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments,

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world ..."

His commandments are not burdensome because the Holy Spirit in our spirit is like the power steering of an automobile. Just a little cooperation and His grace flows through us.

And sometimes if I have just the thought of the faces of some other Christians with whom I am closely associated with before me, I know that my overcoming is also beneficial to them. Thus the love of the brotherhood is expressed in my turning to my overcoming spirit. And love horizontal is power as love vertical is power.

Let's take another look at checkbaiter's reference.

The only troubling verses I find are these...

1 Thess 4:3-8
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
NKJV

"The Lord is the "avenger" of such, is what we are not told in detail of what may transpire.

The avenging must take place when Christ comes again and certain lifestyles of defeated Christians causes them not to be able to inherit the kingdom of God - meaning there the millennial kingdom reward.

1.) "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators not idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God. " (1 Cor. 6:9,10)

The Christians who are defeated and unable to overcome may be in danger of not being allowed to participate in the kingdom of God during the millennium. This decision is made at the judgment seat of Christ at His second coming and just before the thousand year millennial kingdom.

2.) "But fornication and all uncleanness or greediness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints, and obscenity and foolish talking or sly, filthy jesting, which are not becoming but rather the giving of thanks.

For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them ..." (Eph. 5:3-7)

The avenging must take place when the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience in Christ's descent to the earth. For this reason Paul tells the Ephesian Christians:

a). Such lifestyles will exclude them from inheriting the kingdom of Christ and of God - here the millennial kingdom.

b.) To avoid wrath they should not be deceived by vain talk drugging them to tolerate these errors in their Christian life. They should not be fellow partakers of the worldly sinners in doing the same things.

3.) "And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:19-21)

As to Thessolonika where he says he "forewarned" the believers, here also Paul says he told them beforehand more than once, Christians so defeated by these lifestyles will not inherit the kingdom of God - here meaning the millennial kingdom after the second coming of Jesus.

All three passages warn Christians that at Christ's second coming some who are eternally saved may not inherit the millennial kingdom because of their being so defeated.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Purgatory by any other name smells just as stink Jaywill.

Your doctrines are first of all [after I did some research] the works of a cult leader. So as I previously mentioned you are no better than the JWs.

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

What do you think about my instructions.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
What do you think about my instructions.

The Instructor

Rajk999 asked:

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

The adequate answer requires more than one post. Here I deal with punishment of defeated Christians during the millennial kingdom.

The rewards positively and punishments negatively are dispensed by Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ. This occurs when He comes and just prior to the millennial kingdom.

1.) Matthew 16:27 - "For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings."

When Christ comes He will repay each man according to his doings. The overcoming Christian will be rewarded. Some defeated Christians will lose the reward and some will be punished. In the most severe cases some will be burned temporarily in the Gehenna of fire as He warned His disciples in 18:8 and 9.

2.) Matthew 25:14-30 is a teaching about faithfulness. And in the parable Jesus speaks of the Master coming back to settle accounts with his servants. Two are rewarded and one is punished. All three are the servants of the master indicating that all three are Christians.

He is speaking of the time of His second coming - "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them."

So after His comes against right before the millennial kingdom Christ dispenses rewards or punishment to His servants to determine their position in the millennial kingdom. And the punished servant corresponds to the defeated Christian. He is cast into the outer darkness.

"For to every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall abound; but from him who does no have, even that which he has shall be taken away from him.

And cast the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (vs. 29,30)

Such punishments as losing the reward, being cast into outer darkness, or being burned temporarily in the Gehenna of fire therefore have to be during the millennial kingdom. And such punishments cannot exceed a thousand years.

Some punishments may be some portion of a thousand years. But I do not know that for sure.

3.) Matthew 24:45-51 likewise is a teaching about watching and readiness for the second coming of Christ. There is a warning that the unwatchful servant may be caught by surprise acting badly, ie. being defeated in his sins, when Jesus comes. This servant will be disciplined at Christ's coming which is just before the millennial kingdom.

"But if the evil slave says in his heart, My master delays, and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

and will cut him asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (vs.48-51)


These are just three passages showing that such discipline accompanies the coming of Christ. I have emphasized on the negative aspects of the outcome of the defeated Christian being judged by Jesus for reward or punishment just before the commencing of the thousand year kingdom.

There are more passages on this.

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

Above I presented three portions of scripture that I think prove that it is at the beginning of the millennium Jesus determines the position of His believers in that period.

There are more passages than three. But now I must give attention to the second part of the question.

That is how do I know that the punished Christians are granted eternal life after the millennium.

The disciplined Christians never lose eternal life to begin with. They are still children of God. Since in the new heaven and new earth there is no longer any crying or pain or tears had by the saved they MUST be perfected in sanctification by that time.

I do not provide many proof texts yet. But I provide the concept. This is like a negligent student who has to attend summer school. He should graduate at the proper time. But because of negligence he has the remedial situation to attend. He must be in summer school while those who graduated on time enjoy their graduation.

The discipline of Christians during the thousand years is like summer school. They are assured of graduation. But they do so late.

And those Christians who lose the reward or who are cast into the outer darkness or as even hurt by the lake of fire must be fully sanctified by the time of the end of the millennial kingdom.

That is the concept - one of late perfecting and late arrival. God cannot fail to sanctified all of His people. He is righteously bound to do so. For Christ's sake He is obligated to do so.

The flavor of such perfection, however, may not always be the same. And if the Christian does not cooperate willingly during the age of grace he cannot postpone such perfecting indefinitely. He will be perfected under another kind of flavor in the age of the millennial kingdom.

But all will be perfected by the time of the end of the thousand year reign.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 asked:

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

The adequate answer requires more than one post. Here I deal with punishment of defeated Christians during the millennial king ...[text shortened]... efore the commencing of the thousand year kingdom.

There are more passages on this.

Are you now agreeing with the JWs that eternal torment does not mean forever and ever?

The Instructor