Gehenna and the defeated Christian

Are you now agreeing with the JWs that eternal torment does not mean forever and ever?

No. Why do you think that ? Where is the ambiguity ?

I need to see what you read that I wrote that causes you to think I meant that. Was it because I implied that a believer can be temporarily hurt by the eternal fire ?

Originally posted by sonship

Are you now agreeing with the JWs that eternal torment does not mean forever and ever?

No. Why do you think that ? Where is the ambiguity ?

I need to see what you read that I wrote that causes you to think I meant that. Was it because I implied that a believer can be temporarily hurt by the eternal fire ?

It was your attempt to respond to this:

Rajk999 asked:

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

I did not see that you stated that he had made a strawman, but you seemed to allow his statement to stand. Did I misunderstand you as well?

The Instructor

Rajk999 phrased the question like this:

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

Though I didn't particularly care for the way he put it, I think I understand what he meant.

What he calls "wicked followers" I would refer to as defeated believers.
Or you could say "evil and slothful servant" (Matt. 25:26)
Or you could say "useless slave" (25:30).

And they have already been granted the gift of eternal life or they could not be the servants of the Lord Jesus. So they did not lose the gift. They neglected the righteous living by grace and became disapproved, even as Paul said he feared -

"But I buffet my body and make it slave, lest perhaps having preached to others, I myself may become disapproved." (1 Cor. 9:27)

That is "disapproved" in relation to the reward in the millennial kingdom not as to eternal redemption or eternal life.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 phrased the question like this:

What statements did Christ make which supports the idea that wicked followers will just be punished for the 1000 yr reign and therafter be granted eternal life in the kingdom? Can you quote any?

Though I didn't particularly care for the way he put it, I think I understand what he meant.

...[text shortened]... to the reward in the millennial kingdom not as to eternal redemption or eternal life.

Is this also talking about wicked or evil servants or "Defeated Christians" as you call them?

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’...

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

(Matthew 7:15,21-27 NKJV)

“Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

(Matthew 24:11-13,45-51 NKJV)

Does Christ's statement "But he who endures to the end shall be saved" mean something different to you than the rest of us? Are you saying some Christians do not have to endure to the end, but will just undergo torment during the 1000 year reign of Christ and then will still be saved? How about the Mormans and the Jehovah's Witnesses are they servants of Christ because of their door to door salesman activity?

The Instructor

On this lengthy response follow me patiently if possible.

Is this also talking about wicked or evil servants or "Defeated Christians" as you call them?

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

Here I would be careful. A false prophet of could be a non-believer.
Yet a false prophet could also be one is a Christian.
So I would stop short of saying verse 15 cannot be an unbeliever.
But it could be a defeated Christian for sure.

How will we know a false prophet whether defeated Christian or non-Christian ? The principle is the same regardless "By their FRUITS you will recognize them."

It is not the talk that is important here. It is the fruit of their doings by which we determine if they are a false prophet.

Now I will concentrate on the defeated Christian who becomes a false prophet. Verse 13 is an exhortation to the disciples -

[b]"Enter in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter through it. Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Beware of false prophets ...."

DESTRUCTION - "broad is the way that leads to destruction"

"Destruction" here most mean the destruction of the person's works rather than destruction of the person himself. It is safe to interpret it this way. Why ?

In First Corinthians we have a Christian who will have his works and deeds undergo destruction:

First Corinthians 3:15 - "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This is saved person. Yet he has many poor works and deeds accumulated since he began to live for Christ. At the judgment seat of Christ his life is examined. And the hypocrisy, fleshly living, worthless works pass through an examination. What is of God - gold, silver, precious stones survives the fire. What is worthless, of the old nature, useless for Christ's building is burned up - destroyed. Yet the believer is saved as escaping from a burning down house, as through fire-

" ... but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Matthew 7:14 I think should be understood by the saved disciple in this way. If he goes on the broad way of being all his Christian life indistinguishable from a worldly person or becomes a false prophet, his works will be destroyed. He can lose the reward of the kingdom -

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward." (1 Cor. 3:14)

He is already eternally redeemed and has eternal life. In addition he will receive a reward to be enjoyed in the millennium. But he could also "suffer loss" the reward -

"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)

This is the result of poor fruits.
This is the result of inferior building materials for God's living temple.
This is the exposed inferiority of "wood, grass, stubble" to build on the foundation of Christ in verse 12.
This is the exposure of the shortage of "gold, silver, precious stones" as superior building materials of verse 12.

The fire will not burn up the "gold, silver, precious stones" of the superior works built on the foundation of Christ.
The fire WILL consume the "wood, grass, stubble" of the inferior materials.

The broad way that leads to destruction in Matthew 7:14 corresponds to the inferior materials which are found in great abundance - "wood, grass, stubble". The narrow way which leads to life corresponds to "gold, silver, precious stones" which are more rare and more precious and which are suitable for building a house which is to be torched with fire to expose what is lasting and what is not.

So Matthew 7:14 certainly must apply to the saved Christian. And being saved yet so as through fire could correspond to having works burnt up so as to lose the kingdom reward.

Today some believers even can see fruits which are not going to be able to pass Christ's examination - "By their fruits you will know them."

Even today we may recognize the fruits of poor quality in a believer and in ourselves. How much more the Lord will be able to expose them at His examination.

Even today we may see some Christians building on the foundation of Christ with "wood, grass, stubble". How much more the Lord will expose the inferior materials for His building.

So the false prophet who are exposed by their fruits certainly can be the Christian on the broad way that leads to destruction of poor fruits and inferior works.

I say that this is safe because it does not exclude the false Christian. We know that the false Christian can be a false prophet. So my analysis does no harm to regarding it a warning about false Christians. However it includes warning against true Christian on the broad way and prophesying falsely. That could apply to us.

Now we come down to this:

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power ?

And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (vs. 21-23)

The question here is could this passage possibly refer to a saved Christian? Did I not say many times from Romans 10 that if we confess Jesus as Lord and believe in the heart that God raised Him from the dead we will be saved?

My reply would be emphatically yes, this one can who will say on that day "Lord, Lord didn't we do this or that in your name" can lose the reward of entering into the millennial kingdom THOUGH he is eternally saved.

Cont. below.

Cont.

But Paul says if we confess with the mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead we shall be saved.

He did not say such would guarantee a reward.
He did not say such would guarantee you are not a Christian on the broad way that leads to destruction of poor works built on the foundation of Christ.
He did not say it guarantees you are not a Christian who "will be saved, yet so as through fire."
He did not say this guarantees you to participate in the millennial kingdom.

And Jesus is talking about entering into the kingdom of the heavens. The scope of what he speaks is more restricted than the scope of receiving eternal redemption and eternal life.

"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in your name we prophesied ...?" .

Yes, they called on the Lord and were saved. But their fruits exposed a false prophet in their living. Yes, the believed in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Yet they lose a reward and are saved yet so as through fire.

The phrase Paul uses - " ... he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" is so general that we cannot predict how severe this could be. It may be of different levels of severity.

And on the very severe side it could result in Jesus saying at the beginning of the thousand year kingdom, to an eternally saved believer -

"I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness."

"I never knew you" means He never recognized what was done.
He never agreed on the methods.
He never acknowledged the work and never approved of the fruits.
Why? Because they were not done in the principle of doing the will of the Father. They were reckless. They were lawless. They were the wood, grass, stubble which could not endure the examination of the Christian walk by fire.

So I do not believe that "Depart from me" in verse 23 means to be damned forever. I do not believe "Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness" means to suffer eternal perdition.

I believe it corresponds to the being saved yet so as through fire.
I believe it corresponds to losing the reward of participating in the millennial kingdom.
I believe it corresponds to the believing useless servant being cast into the outer darkness. That is being in a realm outside of the Lord's glory while He reigns on the earth in the millennium.

"I never knew you" could mean that they called Him "Lord, Lord" but did not do the will of God - ie. But I never knew you as your Lord. As your Savior yes. As your Lord, too much was lacking.

Luke 6:46 - "And why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?"

I can say "Jesus is Lord" and believe in my heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead and be saved according to the promise of the New Testament in Romans 10:9. Yet live a Christian life of not doing what the Lord TELLS me to do.

Instead of doing what the Lord, whom I called on to be saved, tells me to do, I may do something else. I may do something else in a lawless way. It even may be casting out demons in His name, or many mighty works as a sensational faith healer or religious worker. But I did these things outside of the guidelines established by Jesus. Maybe I did them outside of the Father's good pleasure, with no regard to His regulating. Maybe I could do many things without love -

If I give my body to be burned and understand all mysteries and have faith to remove mountains and have not love it profits ME ... nothing.

So you see, I can call "Lord Jesus" and be eternally saved by the Savior. How then do I live from that point on. That is important.

But there is an antidote in the very same book of Matthew. At the beginning of His teaching He has ALREADY given us an antidote -

Mercy on others - " Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy." (Matt. 5:7)

Even at the judgment for rewards or disciplines before the millennium we may receive mercy. That is if we have been merciful.

The kingdom people live by this rule. They are strict towards THEMSELVES. They are merciful towards others. This is against man's natural tendency. Mostly the natural man is merciful on himself and STRICT on the OTHER person. We give ourselves plenty of leeway. But we are exacting with the other person.

The nature of the kingdom people is different. They are strict with themselves yet merciful with others. Such will be shown mercy by the Lord.

The same is true with judging others -

See Matthew 7:1-5 "Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you.

And why do you look at the splinter which is in your brother's eye, but the beam in your eye you do not consider ? .... etc. etc.

Here again, how we judge fellow Christians will enfluence how we will be judged by Christ. If we judge ourselves strictly but refrain on judging our brother too harshly, we will be shown leniency when we come before Christ.

But if we are accommodating and easy on ourselves yet strict and exacting and judgmental on our fellow Christians, then the exacting judgment we gave out will be the exacting judgment we will receive from Christ.

The fact of the matter is that we all come up short in our Christian walk.
But there can be mercy shown by the Lord when He examines us.
But woe to us if we are judgmental and without mercy on our fellow believers. Then Christ will be exacting and precise upon us without mercy.

James 2:13 - "For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."

Originally posted by sonship
But there is an antidote in the very same book of Matthew. At the beginning of His teaching He has ALREADY given us an antidote -

Mercy on others - [b]" Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy." (Matt. 5:7)

Even at the judgment for rewards or disciplines before the millennium we may receive mercy. That is if we have been mercif ...[text shortened]... gment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." [/b][/b]

You interpretation is not what I was thinking. However, it does not seem entirely impossible, so I am considering it. So continue on with your response to the remainder of my post.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You interpretation is not what I was thinking. However, it does not seem entirely impossible, so I am considering it. So continue on with your response to the remainder of my post.

The Instructor

I got a little diverted into speaking of not judging. The reason for this is that the matter of the reward and punishment to Christians in the millennial kingdom can be so sobering.

Whenever I share on it I seem eager to help the Christian to see the good news of avoiding harsh judgment from Christ.

Forgiveness of others.
Not judging.

These matters then I often jump to early in the discussion so as to keep my brothers and sisters from shrinking in disappointment.

I want this thread not to pass yet.

The following passage proves that there can be forgiveness now in the church age and forgiveness after the second coming of Christ in the millennial kingdom age.

"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one to come." (Matthew 12:32)

The implication of this teaching is that some forgiveness is received now in the church age and some forgiveness is administered in the age to come. That is the age of the millennial kingdom after the second coming of Christ.

" ... it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one to come."

He is indicating two periods in which forgiveness may be received - this age and the one to come.

This explains that a Christian may not confess certain sins he has committed in this age. He may die never having specifically confessed some sin which God has exposed to him.

In the coming age after the Lord's dealing with Him he will finally confess that which he refused to confess during the age of grace. In the kingdom age he will receive forgiveness. But this may be accompanied with some discipline by Christ in that age.

In the most extreme cases a Christian could be burned by the fire of Gehenna as discipline.

It has been statistically surveyed that even a large proportion of Christian single men in this country expect to be in bed with a woman after the third date (unmarried).

If Christian men have indeed sunken to this level there is a need for more emphasis on the punishment of the defeated Christian.

"Once saved always saved" does not mean "Once saved never disciplined."