Gehenna and the defeated Christian

Can a Christian, born again and redeemed believer in Jesus, be disciplined by Christ after His second coming ?

How severe can such discipline be ?
How can the Christian avoid such discipline ?

This thread will be (if I am able) dedicated to a most sober subject. That his the possibility that in some cases one who is saved forever can nevertheless be harshly disciplined during the millennial kingdom.

If you know you are a lover of Christ and are assured of your eternal salvation, fasten your seat belts for a most sober and careful analysis of New Testament teaching.

First though I must apologize to RJHinds to whom I spoke some very strong things. Please forgive me, RJHinds if my judging of you was hurtful. And I forgive you for annoyances I had from your words.

Originally posted by sonship
Can a Christian, born again and redeemed believer in Jesus, be disciplined by Christ after His second coming ?

How severe can such discipline be ?
How can the Christian avoid such discipline ?

This thread will be (if I am able) dedicated to a most sober subject. That his the possibility that in some cases one who is saved forever can nevertheles ...[text shortened]... JHinds if my judging of you was hurtful. And I forgive you for annoyances I had from your words.

Can a Christian, born again and redeemed believer in Jesus, be disciplined by Christ after His second coming ?

Yes

How severe can such discipline be ?

In this life or next? In the next life, other than receiving 0 rewards, I do not know.

How can the Christian avoid such discipline ?

Confess sins now, love God with all your heart, soul and mind, your neighbor as yourself, serve the Lord Jesus Christ now. Basically, walk the talk.

The following word in Matthew 18 is directed towards the disciples of Christ. Two matters are covered:

1.) How to enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

2.) How to live in the kingdom of the heavens.

"In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens ? And He called a little child to Him and stood him in their midst and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no means ENTER into the kingdom of the heavens."

Notice that up to this point Jesus has not yet addressed the specific question. The disciples did not ask about entering the kingdom. They asked, of those who are in the kingdom, [b]"Who then is greatest ...?"

Jesus is going to address their question soon. But first He speaks about entering into the kingdom of the heavens. He does so by emphasizing that anyone who would enter the kingdom must humble himself as a little child.

Simple in motive, trusting in attitude, lowly, not puffed up, not haughty, not gloating in independence but meek in humility and willing to be subordinate.

"And He called a little child to Him and stood him in heir midst and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you turn ... "

This should mean that naturally few of us are like a little child. So we need to come to Jesus and turn our hearts to another direction. We need to repent of our old way of thinking and be as a little child.

" Unless you turn and become like little children, you shall by no menas enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

What we are about to see is that Jesus is saying - the same way we entered into the kingdom is the way also we continue to become great in the kingdom.

The direction we face when we entered the kingdom is the same direction we face as we walk in the kingdom. We continue as a child from entering to living. Notice:

"He therefore who will humble himself like this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens." (v.4)

Here now is the specific answer to their specific question. The one who is greatest in the kingdom is the one who continues to maintain a humble attitude like a little child. As he entered he must continue in the same way. He is greatest in the kingdom.

(We will get to the discipline of Gehenna quite logically as we go.)

You are no better than the JWs Jaywill. You just regurgitate the doctrine of your chosen church and preach it instead of applying some common sense and particularly the words of Christ which is the key to salvation.

Before you preach your once saved always saved garbage consider ..

Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13
•But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And the example of Judas Iscariot who accepted Christ, was baptised and then turned against Christ.

You are no position to know who is saved. Just leave that to Christ.

In Matthew 18:1 the disciples asked Jesus who was "greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?" In verses 2-4 Jesus responds in two parts:

1.) One must enter the kingdom like a little child.
2.) The one who continues to humble himself as a little child, this one is greatest in the kingdom.

In other words the way the believer in Christ begins must be the way he continues. He does not graduate from being humble. He may grow in maturity. But he does not graduate from the need to humble himself as a little child. That is if he desires to be a great one in the kingdom.

This thought is captured very nicely by the Apostle Paul in Colossians where he says that the way the Christian received Christ she should continue to walk in Christ -

"As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him." (Col. 2:6)

As you humbled yourself as a little child to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior so should you continue to walk on - step by step in each matter in the Lord, in all trust and humility.

Seamlessly and logically this all will lead to most sobering exhortations toward Christians. Notice now the continuation to verse 5.

"He therefore who will humble himself like this little child, he is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens.

And whoever receives one such little child because of My name, receives Me ..." (vs. 4,5)

This verse 5 can be a test to reveal whether one has humbled himself in the kingdom life. If a child comes to you in the name of Christ, you better receive that child.

Whoever receives someone like this child because of Christ's name, that is someone who turns to become like a child and who continues to be humble like a child, receives Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
In Matthew 18:1 the disciples asked Jesus who was [b]"greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?" In verses 2-4 Jesus responds in two parts:

1.) One must enter the kingdom like a little child.
2.) The one who continues to humble himself as a little child, this one is greatest in the kingdom.

In other words the way the believer in Christ begins m urns to become like a child and who continues to be humble like a child, receives Christ.[/b]

Boy o boy you love to talk. Thats your favourite pastime.

All of that talk and not a single illustration of how one must be like a child. Its it your opinion that saying that Im like a child is the way?

What about doing the will of God and obedience to his will the way a child would be obedient to his father?

Here is a first comment. I will try to respond to it and still stick to the topic.

You are no better than the JWs Jaywill. You just regurgitate the doctrine of your chosen church and preach it instead of applying some common sense and particularly the words of Christ which is the key to salvation.

It is no shame to repeat what older Christians have taught you, per se.
There is no glory in saying "I can be ORIGINAL everybody."

What is important this:

1.) The teaching is good and right and not wrong.

2.) You yourself LIVE that way so that you teach not only by way of repeating but you practice what you preach.

So then. I am no Jehovah's Witness as most of you should know.
I do not fault Jehovah's Witnesses for repeating or echoing what they were taught. The problem is whether what was taught is really the teaching of the Bible. And a tangent about that I will not get off on here.

But to echo others, to regurgitate is not wrong in and of itself.
It is wrong if:

1.) the teaching is wrong.
2.) one does not exercise himself to LIVE that teaching.

Before you preach your once saved always saved garbage consider ..

This thread is not about the assurance of salvation.
This thread, if I can help it, will be about the possible dispensational disciplines and punishments that will await some Christians who are eternally saved.

Originally posted by sonship
Here is a first comment. I will try to respond to it and still stick to the topic.

You are no better than the JWs Jaywill. You just regurgitate the doctrine of your chosen church and preach it instead of applying some common sense and particularly the words of Christ which is the key to salvation.

It is no shame to repeat what older C ational disciplines and punishments that will await some Christians who are eternally saved.

You are no better than the JWs

correct, no one is better than us, we are the people, the only ones willing to teach others about Gods kingdom in obedience to Christ's command, such a great responsibility, but we relish the challenge, knowing that Jesus is with those who are engaged in this sacred service makes it easy.

You are no better than the JWs

correct, no one is better than us, we are the people, the only ones willing to teach others about Gods kingdom in obedience to Christ's command, such a great responsibility, but we relish the challenge, knowing that Jesus is with those who are engaged in this sacred service makes it easy.

It is a little pre-mature but I can explain to you a relevant matter.

Christians and others alike often labor hard to show that Gehenna was nothing more than the valley for refuse, a kind of city dump outside of Jerusalem.

They are not wrong. The valley of Hinnon or Gehenna was indeed the municipal city dump.

But in the teaching of Jesus Christ He used it as a symbol of divine judgment quite aside from simple physical discarding of trash. And the proof of this is in many places. But one is in the chapter I am now dealing with Matthew 18.

Verse 8 - "If your hand or your foot stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire."

Verse 9 - "And if your eye stumbles you, pluck it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be cast into the Gehenna of fire."

This is not a paraphrase. This is not supplying "hell" instead of Gehenna as in other versions I quoted. This is the equivocation of "eternal fire" exactly with "Gehenna".

The "eternal fire" of verse 8 surely is interchangeable with the "Gehenna of fire" of verse 9.

So Jesus used the symbol of Jerusalem's Gehenna to communicate the truth of eternal fire.

Originally posted by sonship
Can a Christian, born again and redeemed believer in Jesus, be disciplined by Christ after His second coming ?

How severe can such discipline be ?
How can the Christian avoid such discipline ?

This thread will be (if I am able) dedicated to a most sober subject. That his the possibility that in some cases one who is saved forever can nevertheles ...[text shortened]... JHinds if my judging of you was hurtful. And I forgive you for annoyances I had from your words.

I vaguely remember something we had a disagreement on. But since I can't remember what it was, I must have forgiven you already, but it may be me that needs to ask for forgiveness, since I am the one that is usually be obnoxious.

The Instructor

Following humbling oneself to enter the kingdom and continuing to be humble to live in the kingdom, Jesus speaks of receiving such a one in His name.

"And whoever receives one such little child because of My name, receives Me" (v.5)

The Christians must beware how he receives another brother or sister who comes in the name of Christ. Whoever receives someone like the one who turns to become like a child and who continues to be humble like a child, receives Christ.

"And whoever stumbles one of these little ones who believe in Me, it is more profitable for him that a great millstone be hung around his neck and he be drowned in the open sea" (v.9)

This saying indicates that causing a humble Christian who turns to be like a little child to stumble is a more serious problem than than suffering the ignoble death described. To have a heavy millstone hung around your neck as you are tossed into the sea is very bad. However it will be more serious if you cause the humbled Christian to stumble.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples.
Jesus is speaking to those who wish to enter in the kingdom and be great in the kingdom.

This saying is for the disciples of Jesus. If we stumble others who have humbled themselves as little children to live a kingdom life, our fate could be worse that to have a heavy millstone tied to our neck and we be thrown into the sea to drown.

If you stumble others your fate could be worse than the fate Jesus describes. If I stumble, be an obstacle, imped, insult, discourage one who has humbled himself to follow the Lord, I could have a fate during the millennial kingdom which is not good -

" ... it is more profitable for him that a great millstone be hung around his neck and he be cast into the open sea."

Verse 7 follows with a general warning about stumbling the Christian -

"Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! For it is necessary for stumbling blocks to come, but woe to that man through whom the stumbling comes."

I must have forgiven you already, but it may be me that needs to ask for forgiveness, since I am the one that is usually be obnoxious.

Praise the Lord for the cleansing blood of Christ!

Splendid.

Latter I will show how serious a thing it can be when Jesus comes back, for two Christian brothers to have an unresolved contention between them.

We are going through Matthew 18. We have seen hopefully up to this point -

1.) We must humble ourselves as little children to enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

2.) We must continue in humbleness to be great in the kingdom of the heavens.

3.) We must receive such humbled ones as if receiving Christ Himself.

4.) We must be careful that we do not cause the stumbling of such humbled ones.

5.) Soon we will see that it is not only serious to stumble other Christians but it is serious to stumble ourselves.

In the seamless and logical progression of this chapter the next stage is Christ's warning that the disciples eye, foot, hand or other member of his body does not cause HIMSELF to be stumbled.

Originally posted by sonship
Following humbling oneself to enter the kingdom and continuing to be humble to live in the kingdom, Jesus speaks of receiving such a one in His name.

[b]"And whoever receives one such little child because of My name, receives Me" (v.5)

The Christians must beware how he receives another brother or sister who comes in the name of Christ. Whoever r ...[text shortened]... or stumbling blocks to come, but woe to that man through whom the stumbling comes." [/b][/b]

I guess I better watch out for a worse fate because, I think I have been pretty good at giving insults, among other things.

YouTube

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b]Can a Christian, born again and redeemed believer in Jesus, be disciplined by Christ after His second coming ?

Yes

How severe can such discipline be ?

In this life or next? In the next life, other than receiving 0 rewards, I do not know.

How can the Christian avoid such discipline ?

Confess sins now, love God wit ...[text shortened]... and mind, your neighbor as yourself, serve the Lord Jesus Christ now. Basically, walk the talk.[/b]

"How can the Christian avoid such discipline? Confess sins now, love God with all your heart, soul and mind, your neighbor as yourself, serve the Lord Jesus Christ now. Basically, walk the talk."

... by continuing to grow from spiritual infancy to maturity.