1. Joined
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    08 Oct '17 11:50
    Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for [u]lights in the [v]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two [w]great lights, the greater [x]light [y]to govern the day, and the lesser [z]light [aa]to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the [ab]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and [ac]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

    When God created the stars, how long did it take for the light to reach the earth?

    When God put them in their place did he give them movement as we see today?

    For this thread we assume that the account is literally true.

    Would this account negate anything we see in this universe today? If all the laws of nature were put in place and the universe created would simply begin from there, would it negate what we see today?
  2. Joined
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    08 Oct '17 15:07
    Originally posted by @eladar
    [b]Then God said, “Let there be [s]lights in the [t]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for [u]lights in the [v]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two [w]great lights, the greater [x]light [y]to govern th ...[text shortened]... place and the universe created would simply begin from there, would it negate what we see today?
    This could be an interesting "thought experiment" thread or it could come off the rails like so many do.

    The application of supernatural powers of and by God to bring about an ex-nihilo created world (powers represented by "let there be" utterances) should not be assumed to have ended with the creation of Adam and Eve. There are two reasons to think that later supernatural interventions were made. First, the Bible speaks of what we now call miracles. Second, there is the matter of our free will - which can be construed as the bestowal of a sort of limited supernatural power on humans, enabling them to make free decisions and actions, that is, that are not detemined by God or by His natural laws of an otherwise clockwork-created universe.

    The question about starlight reaching the earth has to do with the moments when the various aspects of the created world "went live" and that should be covered by addressing the day-to-day progression of the 6-day effort.
  3. Joined
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    08 Oct '17 15:101 edit
    Originally posted by @js357
    This could be an interesting "thought experiment" thread or it could come off the rails like so many do.

    The application of supernatural powers of and by God to bring about an ex-nihilo created world (powers represented by "let there be" utterances) should not be assumed to have ended with the creation of Adam and Eve. There are two reasons to think that ...[text shortened]... t live" and that should be covered by addressing the day-to-day progression of the 6-day effort.
    Why could not the light from the star be created when the star was created? The entire universe with all aspects of it at all of its different ages created at one moment. This would include light rays from a star that would have exploded a million years earlier.
  4. Joined
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    08 Oct '17 15:29
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Why could not the light from the star be created when the star was created? The entire universe with all aspects of it at all of its different ages created at one moment. This would include light rays from a star that would have exploded a million years earlier.
    I suppose the photons of light streaming from the star in all directions and impinging on created objects could be created at the same time the star was created, so the star would be visible immediately, or could begin to stream only when the star was created, the latter meaning that there would be a delay while the star's light streamed out and it became visible. Does the 6-day progression shed any (ahem) light on this?
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    08 Oct '17 15:55
    Originally posted by @js357
    I suppose the photons of light streaming from the star in all directions and impinging on created objects could be created at the same time the star was created, so the star would be visible immediately, or could begin to stream only when the star was created, the latter meaning that there would be a delay while the star's light streamed out and it became visible. Does the 6-day progression shed any (ahem) light on this?
    Remember God is further above us as we are to ants. Instantaneous universe consistent with the natural laws and motion put in place would be expected. Why would you create stars with locations based on the movement given, not have light already emitted with light would have happened?

    The stars were given movement consistent with the big bang did they not? This thread assumes an Instantaneous creation as described in Genesis 1. The units of time are defined as one period of light and darkness.
  6. Standard membervivify
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    08 Oct '17 16:06
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Why could not the light from the star be created when the star was created? The entire universe with all aspects of it at all of its different ages created at one moment. This would include light rays from a star that would have exploded a million years earlier.
    That wouldn't be logical. If God just created a galaxy that's billion of light years away, there's no way the light reaching earth would reflect that. That is a logical impossibility.

    This is just one of the many reasons why we know the bible's creation account is false.
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    08 Oct '17 16:08
    Originally posted by @vivify
    That wouldn't be logical. If God just created a galaxy that's billion of light years away, there's no way the light reaching earth would reflect that. That is a logical impossibility.

    This is just one of the many reasons why we know the bible's creation account is false.
    God would create the light rays just as He did the stars. What would be more difficult to create?
  8. Standard membervivify
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    08 Oct '17 16:24
    Originally posted by @eladar
    God would create the light rays just as He did the stars. What would be more difficult to create?
    Light contains information (like redshift). That's the problem. The information from the light doesn't match up to a recently created universe.

    If God created light from distant stars and galaxies ex nihilo, that would mean God created light in a deliberately deceptive way. If God can do anything, then he should've made the speed of light MUCH faster, so that his creations don't have valid logical reasons to doubt him.
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    08 Oct '17 16:272 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Light contains information (like redshift). That's the problem. The information from the light doesn't match up to a recently created universe.

    If God created light from distant stars and galaxies ex nihilo, that would mean God created light in a deliberately deceptive way. If God can do anything, then he should've made the speed of light MUCH faster, so that his creations don't have valid logical reasons to doubt him.
    So you are saying God with infinite power and knowledge could not create light with information.

    I find it funny how you can know the Genesis account is wrong based on faulty assumptions.

    God creating an authentic and consistent universe is deception. Funny how people can look at things.
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    08 Oct '17 16:272 edits
    I am of the opinion that the 6 days cannot be 6 literal days in terms of 24 hour periods of time, as 24 hour periods of time didn't exist as we understand then until the universe was in its expanded state. The perceived and actual real passage of time is dependent on the relationship between mass, velocity of mass and the distance between massive bodies before the stars were in their recent proximity, time would not have existed as we perceive it now.

    PS: hate away you supposed Christians 🙂
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    08 Oct '17 16:32
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So you are saying God with infinite power and knowledge could not create light with information.

    I find it funny how you can know the Genesis account is wrong based on faulty assumptions.

    God creating an authentic and consistent universe is deception. Funny how people can look at things.
    I am open to any reasonable explanation you have as to how light gathered by the Hubble which has travelled thousands of light years at 186,000 miles per second could possibly have left a star 6 thousand years ago?
  12. Standard membervivify
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    08 Oct '17 16:331 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    So you are saying God with infinite power and knowledge could not create light with information.
    No, I didn't say "could not". I said your God, with supposed infinite power and knowledge, DID NOT create light consistent with a newly created universe. Instead, your God, did the exact opposite, and created light with info that contradicts him.
  13. Joined
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    08 Oct '17 16:341 edit
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Remember God is further above us as we are to ants. Instantaneous universe consistent with the natural laws and motion put in place would be expected. Why would you create stars with locations based on the movement given, not have light already emitted with light would have happened?

    The stars were given movement consistent with the big bang did they not? ...[text shortened]... on as described in Genesis 1. The units of time are defined as one period of light and darkness.
    OK so "instantaneous creation of all by fiat" makes for a universe at t>0 in which all stars are visible to all stars, unless there are dust clouds in some cases, until the star goes out. Its demise will be visible when the photons stop arriving at a given point, which will be dependent on distance and the speed of light.

    I don't see any problem with this as consistent with Genesis I, assuming the
    supernatural being AKA God is up to it.

    It seems to me that this suggests that our universe is like an idea, from God's POV, an idea that is real to us.
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    08 Oct '17 16:36
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    I am open to any reasonable explanation you have as to how light gathered by the Hubble which has travelled thousands of light years at 186,000 miles per second could possibly have left a star 6 thousand years ago?
    Faulty assumption.
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    08 Oct '17 16:38
    Originally posted by @js357
    OK so "instantaneous creation of all by fiat" makes for a universe at t>0 in which all stars are visible to all stars, unless there are dust clouds in some cases, until the star goes out. Its demise will be visible when the photons stop arriving at a given point, which will be dependent on distance and the speed of light.

    I don't see any problem with this ...[text shortened]... hat this suggests that our universe is like an idea, from God's POV, an idea that is real to us.
    If God created it, then it would have to originate from an idea.
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