Genesis 1:1 , John 1:1

Originally posted by Suzianne
The universe is anything but "unobserved" or "unobservable".

No one has claimed that the universe is unobserved or unobservable, you are slobbering again.

Originally posted by Tshotsho Khalapa
I indicated that this particular argument can be confirmed by using Bible FACTS.

So am I right that you will never accept any counter arguments as you have already made up your mind that your claim is based on indisputable Bible FACTS?
If so, are you actually here to discuss, or to preach?

I believe in Jesus of Nazareth. I believe in God almighty. I belive in the Holy spirit. In my times of troubles I call on Jesus to come to my rescue and indeed He has helped me in countles unbearable situations.
I am not sure why you keep repeating that. Its as if you are not really as sure as you make out and need to keep publicly convincing yourself.

Originally posted by Tshotsho Khalapa
The points indicated above
Suggest that instead of reffering to me as an anonymous you could at least have said that I am an RHP online chess player with user name Tshotsho Khalapa.

You appear to not have understood what I was saying. I am saying that I do not know you and know nothing about you that speaks to your authority as a source of information. Knowing your name or that RHP has your email address doesn't change that.
It remains the case that merely asserting that something is so isn't going to get much traction around here. If you wan't to convince people you are going to have to actually provide either references or argument, preferably the latter.
If you are here to preach to the converted (people that already agree with you) then you are going to have a really hard time as most people come here specifically to disagree with other people. Disagreeing is not a bad thing.

Originally posted by Tshotsho Khalapa
I indicated that this particular argument can be confirmed by using Bible FACTS. As you have said you do'nt believe in God then I believe you and I will never agree on this topic. So long twhitehead- thank you for all your contributions. I believe in Jesus of Nazareth. I believe in God almighty. I belive in the Holy spirit. In my times of troubles I ...[text shortened]... all on Jesus to come to my rescue and indeed He has helped me in countles unbearable situations.

When you say "Bible facts" do you mean that it is a fact that the verses in question state a particular thing, or do you mean that the verses relate to facts of history? In the first case you would be making a claim that the verses of the Bible you reference imply something about Christian belief. If you meant the latter then you would be claiming that any particular verse directly relates to the world.

Assuming that you meant the latter it's a bit of a dicey claim in general. Since you're new here I should mention that I'm an agnostic. Religious texts quite often have poetic and metaphorical meaning, so any given part shouldn't automatically be read as fact in the way, for example, that a news story would be. My feeling is that the meaning of the Garden of Eden story is connected with childhood and what it is like to grow up rather than meaning that there literally was a Garden of Eden, or an historical Adam and Eve. As a metaphor it works. As historical fact there is rather a lot of scientific evidence against it.

On your specific point in the OP, Jehovah is the Latinization of Yahweh which was probably how the Tetragrammaton YHWH was pronounced. That is the name of the God of Israel and therefore a name for the Christian God, although in Christianity he's usually just called God or The Lord. So the OP strikes me as stating a universal belief of Christians. I doubt that any atheists would disagree with you that they are identical, they just don't believe he exists. So I'm left wondering whether you had a point beyond saying: "Hello, I'm a Christian.".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No one has claimed that the universe is unobserved or unobservable, you are slobbering again.

Learn some manners. It's clear that Suzi inadvertently omitted the words "origin of". I'd imagine she was referring to the cosmic microwave background, which is from 300,000 years after the end of the inflationary era. The LIGO breakthrough implies that we may soon (as in within our lifetimes) have access to the gravitational wave background and be able to see back to the inflationary era. Early life is observable through fossils. So your original point doesn't hold water. We can see these things.

Originally posted by DeepThought
So the OP strikes me as stating a universal belief of Christians.

No, the OP is not saying 'Yahweh is God'. The OP is saying 'Jesus is God' and that Jesus has always existed. I am fairly sure that Trinitarianism isn't a universal Christian belief.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, the OP is not saying 'Yahweh is God'. The OP is saying 'Jesus is God' and that Jesus has always existed. I am fairly sure that Trinitarianism isn't a universal Christian belief.

I should have referred back to it, I glanced at the first post but was more interested in what TK meant by "Bible facts", the last paragraph was an afterthought. You are right, there are Unitarians. As I remember there are no explicit claims that Jesus and God are the same entity in the Gospels, mostly they refer to the Son of Man or to the Son of God, rather than make a direct claim that Jesus was an incarnation of God. I never got far beyond Acts so I'm not sure about the later books. I agree that the claim that Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 give explicit biblical authority for Jesus and God being a single entity is flawed, they do not say that. Even so, for Nicene Christians it's pretty uncontroversial.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Even so, for Nicene Christians it's pretty uncontroversial.

Well Tshotsho appears to think it is controversial enough to start a thread on.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Learn some manners. It's clear that Suzi inadvertently omitted the words "origin of". I'd imagine she was referring to the cosmic microwave background, which is from 300,000 years after the end of the inflationary era. The LIGO breakthrough implies that we may soon (as in within our lifetimes) have access to the gravitational wave background and be ab ...[text shortened]... bservable through fossils. So your original point doesn't hold water. We can see these things.

So lets get this we are supposed to be telepathic because suzi communicates using telepathy and you are tuned into her channel with your tin foil hat, gotcha.

Early life is observable through fossils, you dont say???? We are talking of the unobserved phenomena of life having arisen from non living matter in a prebiotic soup, let me repeat that so that there can be no mistake UNOBSERVED PHENOMENA!

Originally posted by twhitehead
So am I right that you will never accept any counter arguments as you have already made up your mind that your claim is based on indisputable Bible FACTS?
If so, are you actually here to discuss, or to preach?

[b]I believe in Jesus of Nazareth. I believe in God almighty. I belive in the Holy spirit. In my times of troubles I call on Jesus to come to m ...[text shortened]... as if you are not really as sure as you make out and need to keep publicly convincing yourself.

I repeated that because of your believe that Jesus and God are fictional characters.I wanted to tell you and others who hold that believe that fictional characters cannot do what the Almighty can do on this world. But please let us go back to the topic of discussion. If you would like to continue this discussion, make use of Bible verses. This will make all of us to have common ground. Please.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
So lets get this we are supposed to be telepathic because suzi communicates using telepathy and you are tuned into her channel with your tin foil hat, gotcha.

Early life is observable through fossils, you dont say???? We are talking of the unobserved phenomena of life having arisen from non living matter in a prebiotic soup, let me repeat that so that there can be no mistake UNOBSERVED PHENOMENA!

She was replying to your post, the context was clear, you could work it out.

Originally posted by DeepThought
She was replying to your post, the context was clear, you could work it out.

Yes clearly I don't speak whale!😵

Originally posted by Tshotsho Khalapa
I repeated that because of your believe that Jesus and God are fictional characters.I wanted to tell you and others who hold that believe that fictional characters cannot do what the Almighty can do on this world. But please let us go back to the topic of discussion. If you would like to continue this discussion, make use of Bible verses. This will make all of us to have common ground. Please.

What is your biblical authority for claiming that Jesus is the same entity as God? Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 do not say that, Genesis 1:1 does not mention Jesus and neither does John 1:1, the first direct mention of Jesus in John's Gospel is in verse 17. I am certain that that claim is not explicitly made in the Gospels - they say Son of Man and Son of God, they do not explicitly say Jesus was God.

Originally posted by Tshotsho Khalapa
I repeated that because of your believe that Jesus and God are fictional characters.I wanted to tell you and others who hold that believe that fictional characters cannot do what the Almighty can do on this world.

I am well aware of your beliefs on the matter. Repeating them won't convince me they are not fictional.

But please let us go back to the topic of discussion.
It is still far from clear what the topic of discussion is supposed to be. Is the topic of discussion you telling everyone else you are right and they are wrong?

If you would like to continue this discussion, make use of Bible verses. This will make all of us to have common ground. Please.
No, it won't make us have common ground.

Originally posted by DeepThought
What is your biblical authority for claiming that Jesus is the same entity as God? Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 do not say that, Genesis 1:1 does not mention Jesus and neither does John 1:1, the first direct mention of Jesus in John's Gospel is in verse 17. I am certain that that claim is not explicitly made in the Gospels - they say Son of Man and Son of God, they do not explicitly say Jesus was God.

Thank you,Deep Thought. I believe now we are getting somewhere.