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    27 Jan '15 08:36

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


    Is the genesis told in chronological order? Did god create the heaven and the earth in verse 1, or did he merely create the matter of which everything in between heaven and earth is made of? What's your belief? And is "the deep" supposed to be the universe? And where did "the waters" come from? Were they always there, in "the deep"?
  2. Joined
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    27 Jan '15 12:32
    Originally posted by C Hess

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


    Is the genesis told in chronological order? Did god create the heaven and the earth in verse 1, or did he merely create the matte ...[text shortened]... to be the universe? And where did "the waters" come from? Were they always there, in "the deep"?
    "Is the genesis told in chronological order?"
    no.
  3. Joined
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    27 Jan '15 13:08
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Is the genesis told in chronological order?"
    no.
    How do you know that? Is there a clue in the bible, other than that it's logically impossible to create heaven and earth and end up with a formless void?
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    27 Jan '15 13:42
    Originally posted by C Hess

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


    Is the genesis told in chronological order? Did god create the heaven and the earth in verse 1, or did he merely create the matte ...[text shortened]... to be the universe? And where did "the waters" come from? Were they always there, in "the deep"?
    While we have discussed the beginning a lot, I don't think we have ever
    touched on this directly. The big debate among my friends and I'm sure
    among others is when did everything get created? Some of those I know
    who I hold in a very high regard believe that God created the universe and
    during that time things went along the dinosaurs were alive and things
    went bad and the earth was flooded. All of that happen in verse 1:1, then
    after that we see 1:2 which is where we are.

    That would make the universe millions/billions of years old.

    Personally I've heard their arguments and they have some strong points,
    but I think God did it just as it is written. He made the heavens and the
    earth as they were and started from there created the rest and not all of
    which was talked about. I do believe there was only one flood not two as
    my friends believe, the flood that Noah lived through.

    It would be easy to go along with that, I just fail to see why God would
    need to.
  5. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    27 Jan '15 16:511 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    While we have discussed the beginning a lot, I don't think we have ever
    touched on this directly. The big debate among my friends and I'm sure
    among others is when did everything get created? Some of those I know
    who I hold in a very high regard believe that God created the universe and
    during that time things went along the dinosaurs were alive and thi ...[text shortened]... d through.

    It would be easy to go along with that, I just fail to see why God would
    need to.
    Kelly, here are a few paragraphs from a recent thread which focus on Genesis 1:1 [Chaos Gap] Genesis 1:2. Hope it helps.

    "Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who would reside with Him. Colossians 1:16-17 (New American Standard Bible) 6 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." In the Book of Revelation 5:11b their number is described as "myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands."

    In speaking to Job God confirmed that the angels preexisted creation: Job 38:4-7 (NASB) 4 "Where were you [Job] when I [God] laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars [angels] sang together And all the sons of God [the entire angelic creation] shouted for joy?" They "shouted for joy" when the universe, "the heavens and earth", were created: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    This brief biblical account of the angelic creation in eternity past will be followed by biblical documentation of the many differences between angels and men. The one vital characteristic men and angels have in common is self determination.
    (Page 3)
    _____________________________________

    "Joe, perhaps we'll be able to revisit this point of difference with respect to our understandings of the biblical account of creation once the topic sequence suggested in the original post is completed. The Bible records four distinct beginnings:

    A) John 1:1 "In the beginning [which was not a true beginning since God is eternal, self-existent and has no beginning or end] was the Word [logos] and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." B) The creation or origination of the angels at some point in eternity past before the creation of the universe. C) Genesis 1:1 documents the creation of the heavens and earth [hashamsyim, in the plural meaning the universe which was created as the domain of the angels]. During this time Lucifer rebelled against God and enticed one third of the angelic host to follow him (as revealed in Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12). This prehistoric revolt took place on planet earth bringing utter chaos upon it. This planet was enshrouded in darkness without light or heat causing the earth's waters to freeze into an ice pack as part of God's judgment. Before the earth could be inhabited again the restoration recorded in Genesis 1:2 would be necessary. D) Fourth beginning, following this restoration, the creation of the human race. Next: Lucifer's trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition.
    (Page 4) Thread 161838
  6. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jan '15 17:30
    God's creation is fully covered in chapter 1, verse 1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Satan's rebellion is not covered in too much detail in Genesis as it is in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. But it is briefly indicated in the first half of verse 2.

    "And the earth became waste and empty; and darkness was upon the surface of the deep."

    I would draw attention to five points in Genesis 1 verse 2a. But they should be considered in light of the whole rest of the Bible.

    1.) The earth became something different from what it was originally.

    2.) The earth became a waste.

    3.) The earth was also in a state of emptiness .

    4.) The verse mentions the darkness.

    5.) The verse mentions the deep.

    These five matters should be kept in mind. After the earth was judged due to Satan's rebellion, it became waste and empty.

    Darkness is another indication of judgment. Exodus 10:21-22 and Revelation 16:10 show that darkness is a result of God's judgment.

    Exodus 10:21-22 - "Then Jehovah said to Moses, Stretch out your hand toward heaven that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness that can be felt. So Moses stretch out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness throughout all the land of Egypt for three days."

    Revelation 16:10 - "And the fifth [angel] poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain."

    Not every instance in the Bible of night or darkness indicates judgment. But these instances and the darkness in Genesis 1:2 mean divine judgment.

    When God exercised His judgment upon Pharaoh, there was darkness so thick it could be felt. Maybe one day scientists will produce a darkness so thick it has substance. I don't know.

    There will be darkness when He exercises His judgment over the kingdom of the Antichrist. So, the darkness in Genesis 1:2a can be believed to signify God's judgment, though details of divine judgment are revealed latter in the Bible.

    Then there is the matter of light. The spiritually minded will realize light in the Scripture so often precedes life. Not just biologically light is needed for life. God as light is needed for imparting divine life. Even in Genesis divine life is important, if even only in symbol.

    Careful Bible students know that light accompanies life and that darkness always signifies death. Where life is, there is light; where death is, there is darkness. In the end of the Bible "there will be no night there" in the holy city New Jerusalem. And death is eliminated.

    Also where there is death, there is darkness.
    Where there is spiritual death in people there will be much spiritual darkness coming from them as well.

    God is concerned for light and life overcoming death and darkness throughout the whole Bible. So these things mentioned in Genesis chapter 1 are not to be taken for granted by those seeking God and God's life.

    Darkness in Genesis 1:2 also signifies that the earth was under a condition of death. The brooding of the Spirit of God upon the deep is a word picture reminiscent of a mother bird brooding over her young in order for them to be born, to obtain life.

    " .. and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the surface of the waters" (v. 2b)

    Even you begin to read the word of God, and if your heart is open the Spirit of God is brooding over you that He may bring forth spiritual life, divine life in your being.

    To take Genesis as an scientific description of an exhaustive explanation of how God created the universe is a mistake. It is crucial to see that it is a record of life. For God Himself is the uncreated Divine Life which is seeking to enter into our created lives for eternal communion - eternal fellowship.

    "The word "deep" means the deep water. In the Bible, water has two meanings and symbolizes two different things, one positive and the other negative.

    Positively water always signifies something living. The flowing water brings life to people and quenches their thirst.

    Negatively, water signifies death. IE, when a believer in Jesus Christ is baptized in water, that water represented death. It means we died with Christ and are raised with Christ.

    Also, the waters of the Red Sea and the waters of the River Jordan both represent death. The water mentioned in Genesis 1:2 carries the negative symbolism. This "deep" doesn't represent life, but indicates death. The earth being covered by deep water therefore means that the earth was under death. The earth not only was waste, empty, and meaningless, but was filled with death and was under death.

    In the midst of this situation, God came in to brood over the earth to bring forth life. And God came in to command light to shine to bring forth life.

    Two striking references to God being light in the New Testament hail back to Genesis 1:1,2 and are used in the sense of God imparting Himself as divine life to fallen sinners.

    John 1:4,5 - "In Him [the Word] was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it."

    Second Corinthians 4:6 - "Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

    Because the Son of God is the central kernel of the Bible, even Genesis in its creation account carries with it some symbolism of God's salvation in Christ to save people from sin, darkness and death.
  7. Joined
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    27 Jan '15 17:38
    If you are interested

    YouTube
  8. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jan '15 17:471 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    If you are interested

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhrdtTG0nTw
    Gerald Schroeder, (an orthodox Jew and MIT professor) does have some interesting things to say. I'll give him that as he speaks to Talmud commentators of centuries ago and cosmology.

    I've seen this and have his book "The Science of God" .
  9. Joined
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    27 Jan '15 17:511 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Gerald Schroeder, (an orthodox Jew and MIT professor) does have some interesting things to say. I'll give him that as he speaks to Talmud commentators of centuries ago and cosmology.

    I've seen this and have his book [b]"The Science of God"
    .[/b]
    If you want to find answers regarding both science and theology, then you need an expert in both.

    Most scientists diss theology and most theologians diss science. Neither has much respect for the other. If so, how on earth can the two ever meet?
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    27 Jan '15 17:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    If you want to find answers regarding both science and theology, then you need an expert in both.

    Most scientists diss theology and most theologians diss science. Neither has much respect for the other. If so, how on earth can the two ever meet?
    They can diss Obama together, Whodey.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jan '15 18:111 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    If you want to find answers regarding both science and theology, then you need an expert in both.

    Most scientists diss theology and most theologians diss science. Neither has much respect for the other. If so, how on earth can the two ever meet?
    Most scientists diss theology and most theologians diss science. Neither has much respect for the other. If so, how on earth can the two ever meet?


    Well, I'm not sure about that. I think at least on the side of the theologians I know, they have a respect for science, and a realization of its limits.

    I am watching the video now for at least the second time in about two years.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jan '15 18:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    If you are interested

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhrdtTG0nTw
    I just finished Dr. Gerald Schroeder's lecture.
    Let's do a trade of interesting videos then.

    Chuck Missler: Gap Theory: The Fall of Satan PART 1 of 4.

    YouTube
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    27 Jan '15 23:321 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    They can diss Obama together, Whodey.
    I've already accepted that I can never understand the wisdom of Obama.

    My dark and limited mind can never grasp his.

    I'm too busy clutching my guns and Bible to become enlightened.
  14. Joined
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    27 Jan '15 23:32
    Originally posted by sonship
    I just finished Dr. Gerald Schroeder's lecture.
    Let's do a trade of interesting videos then.

    Chuck Missler: Gap Theory: The Fall of Satan PART 1 of 4.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a22jsn6U930
    Thnx.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jan '15 23:461 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I'm too busy clutching my guns and Bible to become enlightened.


    In that order ?
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