Getting a vision or a dream canonized

Originally posted by FMF
If someone were to have a dream or vision similar to the one[s] that gave rise to the Book of Revelation, how would they go about getting it added to the New Testament canon?

You want something that everyone buys into as scripture no different than
the other NT books? I don't think that will happen period, unless you look
at the Book of Mormon and other religions where they create their own books
of scripture.

I don't even see the need for anything to become accepted either. The
scriptures were written during the time of Jesus Christ, if God wanted
something else accepted that way I would assume that God would do
something so unquestionably beyond a doubt that God was involved in that.
Without that I don't think anyone would even attempt to add such writings.
Kelly

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I think the current canon was determined before the different churches split from one another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

"Full dogmatic articulations of the canons were not made until the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,[38] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Greek Orthodox. Other tradtitions, [sic] while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to the exact years in which their respective canons were considered to be complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons."

(see link for tables)

Originally posted by KellyJay
You want something that everyone buys into as scripture no different than
the other NT books? I don't think that will happen period, unless you look
at the Book of Mormon and other religions where they create their own books
of scripture.

I don't even see the need for anything to become accepted either. The
scriptures were written during the time of ...[text shortened]... d in that.
Without that I don't think anyone would even attempt to add such writings.
Kelly

What did God do that was unquestionably beyond a doubt that then, if things didn't get settled amongst Christians and there are still doubts (more than that; disagreements) today?

You might say that there are no doubts among the truly faithful, but which people are the truly truly faithful?

I think all the faithful can say is that they know that God knows what they need to rely upon as scripture, and they are doing their best to do so.

Originally posted by JS357
What did God do that was unquestionably beyond a doubt that then, if things didn't get settled amongst Christians and there are still doubts (more than that; disagreements) today?

You might say that there are no doubts among the truly faithful, but which people are the truly truly faithful?

I think all the faithful can say is that they know that God knows what they need to rely upon as scripture, and they are doing their best to do so.

You are asking me what happened during Jesus' time, seriously?

Disagreements are healthy, if something cannot be questioned there are
issues. I like how the King James Bible was put together. The book
Foxes book of martyrs can you a clue as the issues that were before the
scriptures were put out in a form that everyone had access to and could read
on their own.

I agree the faithful are doing their best, but the faithful are not alone either
God is a active today, Jesus is called the Good Shepherd for a reason.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
If you want to start a thread about fault finding observations on the formation of the New Testament, then please feel free to do so.

If you want to start a thread about fault finding observations on the formation of the New Testament, then please feel free to do so.

I only asked because I have not yet enumerated the similarities that might take place, which we know took place in the recognition of the 27 NT books. I was just probing to see how you might react to them.


Let's try it out. A few ways in the past in which books entered into the NT canon that conceivably might be re-applied (given God wanted it):

I thnk we should start with not just someone's vision. But rather let's assume that God directly intervened in a substantial way in the affairs of people in a physical as well as spiritual way. And there were eyewitnesses to it and consecrated to the publishing of the events and associated matters to the Christian public.

1.) Someone with the spiritual authority and eyewitness to God's intervention on earth, of an apostle John could inform the saints that of the many marvelous things done, only a certain subset were included in his writing:

(John 20:30) In other words Ie. paraphrased - "Everything I know is not as important. THESE things are most important."

2.) Someone with the spiritual authority and eyewitness experience to God's intervention like the apostle John, sorting out for us what among his co-workers was actually the case and what was not.

(John 21:23=24) Ie. paraphrased - "A rumor went out among the other witnesses that this was the case. But actually that was not the case."

In other words, let alone a sorting out from non-eyewitnesses false impressions, even a sorting out from genuine co-eyewitnesses would be in order.


3.) An indication from men of the spiritual stature of a Luke that an order accounting, sorting and sifting of accounts had been taking place.

Luke 1:1-4 Ie. "Many witnesses said or wrote things. I have set forth a reliable compendium to affirm what the apostles have taught."

4.) We might expect a apostolic or authoritative request that certain writing be read in all congregations.

1 Thess. 5:23 . Ie. Read this to "all the brethren". Or "Read this in all the Christian churches".

5.) An apostolic recommendation that all who read such would be blessed.

(Rev. 1:3) Ie. like "Wether understood or not, all who read this will be blessed by so doing."

I do not mean like your average Email chain letter. I mean something written by someone of the spiritual caliber of the apostle John - an eyewitness to God's direct intervention into human affairs.

6.) A record of wide circulation among churches.

(Rev. 1:11) Ie. Write these words and send it to all the churches.

Or like Paul's request that his letter be read in other churches:

"When this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church in Laodicea" (Col. 4:16)

In other words , what is profitable for one church to read is profitable for every church to read. A larger audience is intended revealing a kind of believer's universality

These are some of the interbiblical indications that God was working on the canon already in the initial church history. A parallel might be that the same kind of sorting, sifting, and attention was given to writings soon after God's intervention on earth in the presence of eyewitnesses.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are asking me what happened during Jesus' time, seriously?

Disagreements are healthy, if something cannot be questioned there are
issues. I like how the King James Bible was put together. The book
Foxes book of martyrs can you a clue as the issues that were before the
scriptures were put out in a form that everyone had access to and could read
o ...[text shortened]... not alone either
God is a active today, Jesus is called the Good Shepherd for a reason.
Kelly

You are asking me what happened during Jesus' time, seriously?

I'll take that as "I don't know."

My main point is that if every human, some humans, or no humans, agree on what the true canon is, or on what the criteria are for deciding this, that does not make a bit of difference to what the true canon is.

Originally posted by JS357

You are asking me what happened during Jesus' time, seriously?

I'll take that as "I don't know."

My main point is that if every human, some humans, or no humans, agree on what the true canon is, or on what the criteria are for deciding this, that does not make a bit of difference to what the true canon is.

The life of Jesus and the acts of His followers shortly after His death was
something beyond mere human abilities. If you look at the OT God moved
greatly getting His people together and planting them where He wanted
them.

God doesn't change things on us and do that in a small way so that only a
small few know about it, except of course for Mormons and others. If you look
at OT you'll see God moving in a huge way so everyone knew He was doing
something, you look at the NT it was the same way.

With the Mormon believers they have to except God was showing one person
something hidden that only he could see, where any other time in scripture
major events were taking place there was no doubt in the times of those
living that something big was happening.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
God doesn't change things on us and do that in a small way so that only a
small few know about it, except of course for Mormons and others. If you look
at OT you'll see God moving in a huge way so everyone knew He was doing
something, you look at the NT it was the same way.

So what kind of instance of "God moving in a huge way so everyone knew He was doing something" would it take for you to accept the addition of a new book to the canon?

Originally posted by FMF
So what kind of instance of "God moving in a huge way so everyone knew He was doing something" would it take for you to accept the addition of a new book to the canon?

That'd be up to God not me, and besides the future that is before us has been
written about already, not sure what, if anything would need to be added.
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill
I think we should start with not just someone's vision. But rather let's assume that God directly intervened in a substantial way in the affairs of people in a physical as well as spiritual way. And there were eyewitnesses to it and consecrated to the publishing of the events and associated matters to the Christian public.

Can you give an example of the kind of thing you are imagining when you say there would need to be eyewitnesses to "God directly interven[ing] in a substantial way in the affairs of people in a physical as well as spiritual way"?

Originally posted by KellyJay
That'd be up to God not me, and besides the future that is before us has been written about already, not sure what, if anything would need to be added.
Kelly

On the contrary. What it would take for you to accept the addition of a new book to the canon would be up to you and not to God. What would it take to convince you that it was God's will for the new book to be added?

Originally posted by FMF
On the contrary. What it would take for you to accept the addition of a new book to the canon would be up to you and not to God. What would it take to convince you that it was God's will for the new book to be added?

I already said God would have to do something beyond the normal that only
God could get credit for, and if He were to do something like that it would be
for His reasons and the event too would be competely up to Him as well. I
don't think I would have tought of Jesus coming to die for my sins and coming
back to life before it happened, God's ways are far above mine so I'm not
going to say God must do this, or that to make me believe. I'm sure He could
if He wanted to get my attention.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I already said God would have to do something beyond the normal that only
God could get credit for, and if He were to do something like that it would be
for His reasons and the event too would be competely up to Him as well.

I am not asking you to say what God "must do". I am asking what kind of thing "beyond the normal" it would take to convince you. Maybe you can offer an illustrative example or two?

Originally posted by KellyJay
... I don't think I would have [thought] of Jesus coming to die for my sins and coming
back to life before it happened ...

The fact that you don't think that you would have thought of it is telling only of your lack of
imagination and says nothing about the imaginations of the people of the time.

The mythologies of the day were full of people dying and coming back to life, and virgin
births well before the JC myth was created.

Quoting Richard Carrier from this article: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/667/

"... Religious syncretism is the process of combining ideas from several sources, often
the most popular or useful ideas in the air, into a new whole, making for a new religion.

All religions are produced this way. Christianity therefore certainly was as well (it would
go against all prior probability to claim otherwise, and against all the evidence as well).

Judaism had a prominent component of sacrifices atoning for a nation’s entire sins, a
belief in the holy spirit making Jewish kings into the sons of god (see Not the Impossible
Faith, chapter 9), and a tendency toward ascetic denigration of sexuality.
Paganism had a prominent component of dying-and-rising savior gods, who likewise offered
ways to cleanse their followers of sins and thus procure them entry into paradise–not necessarily
by their death, but always in some way, and in many cases through baptismal rituals long
predating[sic] Christianity’s adoption of the same or similar ritual (see The Empty Tomb, p. 215,
n. 210); and pagans had many traditions about virgin born sons of god.

Note what happens when you combine the Jewish side with the pagan: you get Christianity.
This is actually almost certainly what happened, and thus should not even be in dispute. ..."

And he also expands on the topic here: http://richardcarrier.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/dying-messiah.html

Originally posted by FMF
Can you give an example of the kind of thing you are imagining when you say there would need to be eyewitnesses to "God directly interven[ing] in a substantial way in the affairs of people in a physical as well as spiritual way"?

Can you give an example of the kind of thing you are imagining when you say there would need to be eyewitnesses to "God directly interven[ing] in a substantial way in the affairs of people in a physical as well as spiritual way"?

Well, the jist of that suggestion was really that the book of Revelation was not simply the result of some visions. It was the culmination of John's witness as one of the twelve disciples of Christ. Christ's coming, life, death, resurrection, and ascension were strong interventions of God into world affairs.

Something momentous from God upon the earth might serve as a impetus for the need of another series of confirming visions - a revelation.

I do not want to move to much into imagination. I don't care for Christian fiction anyway. Please don't ask me to add to the popular body of Christian fictional books.

I like to read real life testimonies and things that actually occured. So I probably will not labor over much on an imaginative hypothetical.