Originally posted by @romans1009However, his point is well-made that the Christian who pulls "fear" out of his toolbox to convince others to follow God is not doing anyone any favors.
I believe that quote from Proverbs refers to the fear of God, and “fear” in the New Testament is often a synonym for “respect” and “awe,” as when Paul advised to work out your salvation “with fear and trembling” and as when another Proverb declared the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Originally posted by @suzianneIndeed. It is a wise King who wants his subjects to come to him through love. It is the tyrant who wants the same outcome using fear.
However, his point is well-made that the Christian who pulls "fear" out of his toolbox to convince others to follow God is not doing anyone any favors.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeAack.
Indeed. It is a wise King who wants his subjects to come to him through love. It is the tyrant who wants the same outcome using fear.
The will naturally chaffs against authority--- even one which a person knows is right.
But you have us going to God because we love Him so much?
Something is missing in your formula.
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I find it interesting what 'issues' non-theists and non Christians sometimes latch onto in the Scriptures. The account given in Genesis 3 has never before, in my experience or knowledge, been cited by anyone to debunk God's omniscience.
The simple fact is, God is in the habit of often asking questions of his creatures to bring a response (hopefully, repentance). This is the case in Genesis 3 with Adam and Eve and also the case in Genesis 4 with Cain.
The Hebrew text implies, in Genesis 3, that God's goal in asking such a question was to get Adam and Eve to 'fess up over their wrongdoing. The text further implies - God was seeking not so much after the geographic location but their spiritual condition. This is agreed upon by most biblical scholars.
Therefore, for you to ask this question and to seek to use this text as a 'proof' against the Doctrine of God's omniscience really only goes to show those who know anything about the Scriptures how little you know. I have not even heard reputable critics of the text bring this issue up. You are a first and frankly you miss the entire point of the text.
Originally posted by @alphazeroThis is a great post.
I find it interesting what 'issues' non-theists and non Christians sometimes latch onto in the Scriptures. The account given in Genesis 3 has never before, in my experience or knowledge, been cited by anyone to debunk God's omniscience.
The simple fact is, God is in the habit of often asking questions of his creatures to bring a response (hopefully, r ...[text shortened]... the text bring this issue up. You are a first and frankly you miss the entire point of the text.
Originally posted by @freakykbhI think that’s why many people have to hit rock bottom before they turn to God, whether it be due to consequences of their own behavior and decisions or some sort of natural disaster they had nothing to do with.
Aack.
The will naturally chaffs against authority--- even one which a person [b]knows is right.
But you have us going to God because we love Him so much?
Something is missing in your formula.[/b]
Because going to God and getting saved for eternity is more important than what amounts to a momentary, even if severe, affliction.
Originally posted by @freakykbhIndeed sir. I should have included a dollop of fudge.
Aack.
The will naturally chaffs against authority--- even one which a person [b]knows is right.
But you have us going to God because we love Him so much?
Something is missing in your formula.[/b]
Fear or desperation are hollow motivators.
Originally posted by @freakykbhWould Proverbs 8:17 still work if the second 'love' were replaced with 'fear?'
But you have us going to God because we love Him so much?
'I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.'
Originally posted by @alphazeroWell, first, I disagree that any single perspective can ever be the "entire" point of a complex text like the Bible.
I find it interesting what 'issues' non-theists and non Christians sometimes latch onto in the Scriptures. The account given in Genesis 3 has never before, in my experience or knowledge, been cited by anyone to debunk God's omniscience.
The simple fact is, God is in the habit of often asking questions of his creatures to bring a response (hopefully, r ...[text shortened]... the text bring this issue up. You are a first and frankly you miss the entire point of the text.
2nd, you are on a forum with lay people. If you want only "reputable biblical scholars", then you came to the wrong place.
3rd, I have no spiritual ego. Mocking won't get you anywhere. Good arguments will.
Welcome to the Spirituality Forum.
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Originally posted by @suzianneYou refer to Romans1009, or Paul? From the thread on what is your greatest fear, on page 1, Romans1009 says, “My worst fear is the wrath of God. Human wrath I can deal with. Chastening by God is unpleasant but survivable. The wrath of God? Nothing worse.”
However, his point is well-made that the Christian who pulls "fear" out of his toolbox to convince others to follow God is not doing anyone any favors.
Of course Romans1009 does not “pull fear out of his toolbox to convince others to follow God.” He need only rattle the box, citing its Biblical mention.
Originally posted by @js357Or maybe I was just answering the question honestly. If you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, as I do, would there be anything worse than having Him angry at you?
You refer to Romans1009, or Paul? From the thread on what is your greatest fear, on page 1, Romans1009 says, “My worst fear is the wrath of God. Human wrath I can deal with. Chastening by God is unpleasant but survivable. The wrath of God? Nothing worse.”
Of [b]course Romans1009 does not “pull fear out of his toolbox to convince others to follow God.” He need only rattle the box, citing its Biblical mention.[/b]
I’m not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I’ve encountered enough online atheists to know you couldn’t open their mind on the subject of God with a stick of dynamite. Some believers just like talking about God and the Bible and are not here to proselytize anyone.
Originally posted by @romans1009“Some believers just like talking about God and the Bible and are not here to proselytize anyone.”
Or maybe I was just answering the question honestly. If you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient God, as I do, would there be anything worse than having Him angry at you?
I’m not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I’ve encountered enough online atheists to know you couldn’t open their mind on the subject of God with a stick of dynamite. Some believers just like talking about God and the Bible and are not here to proselytize anyone.
That’s fine, your enjoyment of talking about how nothing could be worse than having God angry at you is less impactful in its potential effect on those who have been exposed to such musings and don’t believe that sort of God exists. And IMO you are right if you have concluded that this isn’t the place to find receptive minds. But I doubt that you would mind if your musings on God’s wrath gave some nonbelievers here, pause for thought.
Originally posted by @js357<<That’s fine, your enjoyment of talking about how nothing could be worse than having God angry at you is less impactful in its potential effect on those who have been exposed to such musings and don’t believe that sort of God exists.>>
“Some believers just like talking about God and the Bible and are not here to proselytize anyone.”
That’s fine, your enjoyment of talking about how nothing could be worse than having God angry at you is less impactful in its potential effect on those who have been exposed to such musings and don’t believe that sort of God exists. And IMO you are right if y ...[text shortened]... at you would mind if your musings on God’s wrath gave some nonbelievers here, pause for thought.
And you’re mistaken if you think I care who my opinion is impactful on. Once again, I’m not here to proselytize.
<<And IMO you are right if you have concluded that this isn’t the place to find receptive minds. But I doubt that you would mind if your musings on God’s wrath gave some nonbelievers here, pause for thought.>>
I’m just stating my opinion and offering thoughts. Why make more out of it than that? Do you doubt atheists here would mind if their musings gave believers pause for thought? If not, why do you see ulterior motives with me (and presumably other believers) but not with them?
Originally posted by @romans1009When it comes to public forums, I see ulterior motives everywhere, if influencing people in a particular direction is ulterior and not overt.
<<That’s fine, your enjoyment of talking about how nothing could be worse than having God angry at you is less impactful in its potential effect on those who have been exposed to such musings and don’t believe that sort of God exists.>>
And you’re mistaken if you think I care who my opinion is impactful on. Once again, I’m not here to proselytize.
...[text shortened]... not, why do you see ulterior motives with me (and presumably other believers) but not with them?