Originally posted by finnegan"There is no Jewish race."
The final sentence of this interesting artical points out that researchers performing studies without racial/ethnic labels should be wary of characterizing difference between genetically defined clusters as genetic in origin, since social, cultural, economic, behavioral, and other environmental factors may result in extreme confounding. What does ...[text shortened]... construct and as such it is not honest to say it might be justified by biological evidence.
Right. They're Hebrew. 😉
Good post by the way.
Originally posted by PalynkaXenophobia - hatred of foreigners - is a common characteristic among people whose land has for too long been interfered with by foreigners and who feel their values are being insulted and despised. Irish people had a similar reaction to the English at one time not so far back. Pastor Jones is tolerated in his country and has the freedom to be as offensive as he wishes. Some people fear this is because he has a great deal of support for his views in that country. The Islamaphobia displayed on this forum would tend to support that fear.
Not really.
People didn't kill UN representatives because they believed in Pastor Jones. They killed UN representatives because they are even more xenophobic than Pastor Jones.
When feelings run very high, as they clearly do, then racist and inflammatory acts provoke responses that are predictable. It is very easy to achieve. In India for example, the English were able to provoke communal violence and angry reactions whenever they wanted an excuse to take over another patch of territory, while disowning any responsibility for the behvaiour of such incivilized people (whose civilization predated the English by not centuries but millenia).
Could that happen in America? Could mobs of angry Americans be provoked into violence by insulting provocations and demagogues? Could idiots be provoked to shoot people they dislike, from Black civil rights organizers to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?
Originally posted by finneganAll good points.
Xenophobia - hatred of foreigners - is a common characteristic among people whose land has for too long been interfered with by foreigners and who feel their values are being insulted and despised. Irish people had a similar reaction to the English at one time not so far back. Pastor Jones is tolerated in his country and has the freedom to be as offensive ...[text shortened]... to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?
"Could that happen in America? Could mobs of angry Americans be provoked into violence by insulting provocations and demagogues? Could idiots be provoked to shoot people they dislike, from Black civil rights organizers to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?"
Are you being facetious? These things have been going on the world over for as long as man can remember.
Originally posted by josephwNever mind all over the World. These are things that happen in the USA and the questions are rhetorical not facetious. Someone wants me to believe that the people of Afghanistan are less enlightened than the people of the USA. I am not even sure they are less well educated and they are not well educated I know.
All good points.
[b]"Could that happen in America? Could mobs of angry Americans be provoked into violence by insulting provocations and demagogues? Could idiots be provoked to shoot people they dislike, from Black civil rights organizers to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?"
Are you being facetious? These things have been going on the world over for as long as man can remember.[/b]
Originally posted by finneganDo you know whether or not there is a genetic marker for a Hebrew?
The Israeli immigration authorities would be grateful for any advice about a genetic marker to determine who has the right of entry.
There probably isn't, but by definition a Hebrew would be a direct descendant of Abraham who was a descendant of Noah of whom we are all descendants.
Originally posted by finneganI hope I'm not aggravating you. You sound aggravated. Although I wouldn't mind being credited with provocation. 😉
Never mind all over the World. These are things that happen in the USA and the questions are rhetorical not facetious. Someone wants me to believe that the people of Afghanistan are less enlightened than the people of the USA. I am not even sure they are less well educated and they are not well educated I know.
It's not so much a question of the amount of education but the quality. And not so much that either.
To me it's what one knows.
Originally posted by finneganNow we learned that you think murdering xenophobia can be justified. Interesting.
Xenophobia - hatred of foreigners - is a common characteristic among people whose land has for too long been interfered with by foreigners and who feel their values are being insulted and despised. Irish people had a similar reaction to the English at one time not so far back. Pastor Jones is tolerated in his country and has the freedom to be as offensive ...[text shortened]... to doctors performing abortions to Democrat politicians? Or is the US more civilized than that?
Like I said, moral contortionism.
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Originally posted by finneganYou are the one holding murdering perpetrators up to a different standard and excusing their inability to distinguish Pastor Jones from random members of the same perceived group (whichever that is, beats me. "Westerners"? What does that even mean?).
Someone wants me to believe that the people of Afghanistan are less enlightened than the people of the USA. I am not even sure they are less well educated and they are not well educated I know.
I also like it how you implicitly view the perpetrators as representatives of "the people of Afghanistan", when I'm only blaming those who did the deeds.
Originally posted by josephwI think you will find that we all share common ancestors a lot more recent than Abraham. Rememebr the Worlds population was once tiny compared to today.
Do you know whether or not there is a genetic marker for a Hebrew?
There probably isn't, but by definition a Hebrew would be a direct descendant of Abraham who was a descendant of Noah of whom we are all descendants.
On the other hand, I think you will find that Jews have been converting others since their early times, certainly from the second century BCE, so that some 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was jewish at one time, with other converts elswhere through history.
So if you want your narrow definition you must exclude many Jews from inclusion.
Originally posted by finneganI think there may be a clear distinction between who is an actual Hebrew, who may or may not be an Israelite, or even a Jew for that matter, and a proselyte.
I think you will find that we all share common ancestors a lot more recent than Abraham. Rememebr the Worlds population was once tiny compared to today.
On the other hand, I think you will find that Jews have been converting others since their early times, certainly from the second century BCE, so that some 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was ...[text shortened]... gh history.
So if you want your narrow definition you must exclude many Jews from inclusion.
But I'm only speculating.
Originally posted by PalynkaWell to be clear my contributionw was provoked by the following claim from Whodey: One thing the Bible teaches that the Koran does not is that God loves those that hate him. Christ said to love your enemies and do good to those that despitefully use you and persecute you. Instead, the Koran teaches that Allah hates those that oppose him. And so it goes, when enemies of Allah spring up, they are to be treated accordingly.
You are the one holding murdering perpetrators up to a different standard and excusing their inability to distinguish Pastor Jones from random members of the same perceived group (whichever that is, beats me. "Westerners"? What does that even mean?).
I also like it how you implicitly view the perpetrators as representatives of "the people of Afghanistan", when I'm only blaming those who did the deeds.
I pointed out that this false claim is an example of islamaphobia and I used the behaviour of Pastor Jones to illustrate what, in my view, is the violent consequence of islamaphobia and the empty hypocrisy of its proponents. It is not a reasoned comment on the Qu'ran but a miserable insult, provocative to people who experience the recent behaviour of western powers in their countries as destructive of their values.
It is obvious that "extremists" within the Muslim faith exploit the anger of people around them for their political ends and that in turn produces actions by individuals which are morally deplorable. It is not obvious how Pastor Jones (for example) can be seen as promoting Christian values of peace and love to these people.
It is not unreasonable for this purpose to regard Pastor Jones as an example of behaviour in the west towards Islam, nor is it unreasonable to regard the resulting violence as representative of what might be predicted in the people of Afghanistan, most of whom I suspect would not be at all insulted to be described as violent and dangerous. They have survived in that region precisely because they are aggressive in response to repeated invasions and to any perceived threat. I am sure that in response to civil and courteous exchanges they are as courteous and hospitable as any but at this time they live under intolerable conditions and are not likely to share your enjoyment of meaningless and idle banter at their expense.
When you insult Muslims then who do you think you are insulting?
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Originally posted by finneganThat is where you are wrong. If there are passages in the koran that express mercy to enemies of Allah I would very much like to hear them. First you say you are no scholar and cannot provide me those passages and then you expect me to buy the notion I am trying to start pogroms for questioning your assertion about something you have self admittingly have no expertise in? 😲
Nice to hear again from the apostle of love. I think you might want to restrict your claim to the New Testament rather than the entire Bible however and even then there is room for caution. I am no scholar of the Qu'ran but your reading of it is false. I am not interested in digging out contrary citations and you are not interested in hearing them.
This offensive intentions and effects. This is the kind of talk that accompanies communal pogroms.
I am in no way trying to deomize Muslims across the globe. I know some very moderate muslims. One that I know told me a story about living in northern Africa. His father was a moderate muslim and as such, he was looked down upon by many fundamentalists as being an infidel. Despite this, his father inexplicably turned the other cheek in a Christ-like fashion when persecuted by these mental midgets. Simply put, he refused to take a literal reading of the koran where the fundamentalists did.
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Originally posted by finnegan[/b][/b]
Well to be clear my contributionw was provoked by the following claim from Whodey: [b] One thing the Bible teaches that the Koran does not is that God loves those that hate him. Christ said to love your enemies and do good to those that despitefully use you and persecute you. Instead, the Koran teaches that Allah hates those that oppose him. And so it goes, ...[text shortened]... anter at their expense.
When you insult Muslims then who do you think you are insulting?[/b]
I pointed out that this false claim is an example of islamaphobia and I used the behaviour of Pastor Jones to illustrate what, in my view, is the violent consequence of islamaphobia and the empty hypocrisy of its proponents. It is not a reasoned comment on the Qu'ran but a miserable insult, provocative to people who experience the recent behaviour of western powers in their countries as destructive of their values.
Agreed.
It is obvious that "extremists" within the Muslim faith exploit the anger of people around them for their political ends and that in turn produces actions by individuals which are morally deplorable. It is not obvious how Pastor Jones (for example) can be seen as promoting Christian values of peace and love to these people.
Right, but murder of third-parties based on group association is far worse than a provocative insult, no matter how bad it is. Do you not agree?
It is not unreasonable for this purpose to regard Pastor Jones as an example of behaviour in the west towards Islam, nor is it unreasonable to regard the resulting violence as representative of what might be predicted in the people of Afghanistan, most of whom I suspect would not be at all insulted to be described as violent and dangerous.
Of course it is "unreasonable". That you can find why some people became blind with hate doesn't make them less blind.
They have survived in that region precisely because they are aggressive in response to repeated invasions and to any perceived threat.
How does this work? It's ok to murder pre-emptively members of a group because others may be threatening, is that what you're saying? I don't get how this exonerates the perpetrators from the killing of UN workers.
I am sure that in response to civil and courteous exchanges they are as courteous and hospitable as any but at this time they live under intolerable conditions and are not likely to share your enjoyment of meaningless and idle banter at their expense.
Who's asking them to enjoy meaningless and idle banter? Lordy, you do like contortionism. 😕
When you insult Muslims then who do you think you are insulting?
Where did I insult Muslims? If this is about Pastor Jones, what type of insults justify murder? And what type of insults justify the killing of third parties? If none, then why don't you accuse the perpetrators of murder rather than Pastor Jones?