1. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 02:471 edit
    It doesn't matter about what arguments anyone ever thinks he or she can bring "to the table." God will do what He wants. God is sovereign!

    Our little imaginations and thoughts are what are worthless. We cannot wish away God. We cannot think away God. We cannot imagine ourselves outside of God's jurisdiction.

    We can do nothing that God does not have final say so about. God will do with us what He wants.

    Why try to bring up any rationalizations that matter nothing at all.

    What is sad is that people who are given a chance to be with God do not care for their own souls. No human experience is so eternal that God's eternal life cannot out-do.

    Why do any of you want to to be separate from God for an eternity? Isn't that in itself, irrational? If we don't know God, please just admit it. But to deny God is against our own selves.

    King James Version
    -------------------------
    Isaiah 1: 18
    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
  2. SubscriberBigDoggProblemonline
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    22 Jun '14 04:03
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    It doesn't matter about what arguments anyone ever thinks he or she can bring "to the table." God will do what He wants. God is sovereign!

    Our little imaginations and thoughts are what are worthless. We cannot wish away God. We cannot think away God. We cannot imagine ourselves outside of God's jurisdiction.

    We can do nothing that God does not ...[text shortened]... scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    Grrrrreat. BibleBot is back. 😞😞😞
  3. Standard membervivify
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    22 Jun '14 04:07
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    It doesn't matter about what arguments anyone ever thinks he or she can bring "to the table." God will do what He wants. God is sovereign!

    Our little imaginations and thoughts are what are worthless. We cannot wish away God. We cannot think away God. We cannot imagine ourselves outside of God's jurisdiction.

    We can do nothing that God does not ...[text shortened]... scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    Amen, buster. Amen.
  4. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '14 13:06
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Why do any of you want to to be separate from God for an eternity? Isn't that in itself, irrational? If we don't know God, please just admit it. But to deny God is against our own selves.
    I may not be able to influence what God does, but I can point out when you are using a strawman argument. After all, you are not God.
    Can you point me to one single person who wants to be separate from God for eternity?
  5. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 13:29
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I may not be able to influence what God does, but I can point out when you are using a strawman argument. After all, you are not God.
    Can you point me to one single person who wants to be separate from God for eternity?
    I can't imagine anyone who knows there is God that would willingly want to be separated from Him for all eternity.

    So it begs the question. Who doesn't know there is a God? If there be a God that is the creator of all that exists, then why would He hide Himself from His creation? Perhaps the failure is on the part of man? Maybe men are so self deceptive that they willfully disregard the obvious. We know that much is true.

    So then, just maybe there are those who just can't bring themselves to acknowledge God for whatever reason.
  6. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '14 13:44
    Originally posted by josephw
    So then, just maybe there are those who just can't bring themselves to acknowledge God for whatever reason.
    Or maybe, just maybe, there are those who just can't bring themselves to acknowledge that there is no God, for whatever reason.
    At least we are in agreement that the OP, is a strawman.
  7. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 15:40
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Or maybe, just maybe, there are those who just can't bring themselves to acknowledge that there is no God, for whatever reason.
    At least we are in agreement that the OP, is a strawman.
    A clear dichotomy.

    Those who's perceptions of reality reveal to them that what exists has a creator(God)as the cause for all that exists, and those who's perceptions of reality reveal to them that what exists has no creator(God)as the cause for all that exists.

    Therefore, those who believe there is a creator have a reason for why the universe exists, but those that don't believe in a creator have no reason for why the universe exists. 😉
  8. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '14 15:58
    Originally posted by josephw
    Therefore, those who believe there is a creator have a reason for why the universe exists, but those that don't believe in a creator have no reason for why the universe exists. 😉
    Quite so. A rather trivial observation. Did you think perhaps that it favours theism?
    But claiming to have an answer to a question doesn't make it the right answer.
    Nor does someone else claiming to not know the answer make your answer any more likely to be true.
  9. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 16:48
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Quite so. A rather trivial observation. Did you think perhaps that it favours theism?
    But claiming to have an answer to a question doesn't make it the right answer.
    Nor does someone else claiming to not know the answer make your answer any more likely to be true.
    I think it does.

    God is the creator of reason if He is the creator of all. By reason we believe in something, not nothing. No one, by reason, asserts an idea based on the absents of evidence to prove its legitimacy.

    Therefore, what exists is the evidence for a cause, not the evidence for the absents of a cause, and by reason we believe that what exists is by the design of a being who is the epitome of reason.
  10. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '14 16:59
    Originally posted by josephw
    No one, by reason, asserts an idea based on the absents of evidence to prove its legitimacy.
    Well then you must be asserting it for reasons other than reason. That people do assert things, absent evidence is undeniable.

    Therefore, what exists is the evidence for a cause,
    Therefore? How did that statement follow from the ones before?

    not the evidence for the absents of a cause,
    And if you will note carefully, nobody has claimed to have evidence for the absence of a cause.

    ...and by reason we believe that what exists is by the design of a being who is the epitome of reason.
    Well you didn't demonstrate said reason in your post. So either you are keeping your reasoning process secret, or you are mistaken and your beliefs are not based on reason.

    Mostly your post consists of unsubstantiated claims strung together with words like 'therefore' without any logical deductions being made at all. For a post that uses the word 'reason' so many times, it is sorely lacking in it.
  11. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 17:00
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    It doesn't matter about what arguments anyone ever thinks he or she can bring "to the table." God will do what He wants. God is sovereign!

    Our little imaginations and thoughts are what are worthless. We cannot wish away God. We cannot think away God. We cannot imagine ourselves outside of God's jurisdiction.

    We can do nothing that God does not ...[text shortened]... scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    Our little imaginations and thoughts are what are worthless.


    That is a self-refuting statement.
  12. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 20:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Well then you must be asserting it for reasons other than reason. That people do assert things, absent evidence is undeniable.

    [b]Therefore, what exists is the evidence for a cause,

    Therefore? How did that statement follow from the ones before?

    not the evidence for the absents of a cause,
    And if you will note carefully, nobody has cla ...[text shortened]... g made at all. For a post that uses the word 'reason' so many times, it is sorely lacking in it.[/b]
    Ya, you're probably right.

    Consider why you and others don't believe there is a God. Isn't it always because you say there is no evidence? From where do you get this 'no evidence'? Isn't the only source of evidence from which to prove anything all that exists?

    Would not all that exists be evidence for a creator as opposed to being evidence for 'no cause' for its existence?
  13. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 20:193 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    Ya, you're probably right.

    Consider why you and others don't believe there is a God. Isn't it always because you say there is no evidence? From where do you get this 'no evidence'? Isn't the only source of evidence from which to prove anything all that exists?

    Would not all that exists be evidence for a creator as opposed to being evidence for 'no cause' for its existence?
    that No. Another premise or two is needed, something like "Everything that exists was created" and "Created implies creator." Then the evidence that something exists would imply it was created by a creative agent. However, there is difficulty in proving that needed first premise is true because it too, requires evidence.

    "Created implies creator" is not so difficult, as it is a matter of implied agency and semantics. Except that it could be that the creator is no longer existent.
  14. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 20:50
    Originally posted by JS357
    that No. Another premise or two is needed, something like "Everything that exists was created" and "Created implies creator." Then the evidence that something exists would imply it was created by a creative agent. However, there is difficulty in proving that needed first premise is true because it too, requires evidence.

    "Created implies creator" is not so ...[text shortened]... of implied agency and semantics. Except that it could be that the creator is no longer existent.
    "Except that it could be that the creator is no longer existent."

    And the evidence for that..?

    😉
  15. Joined
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    22 Jun '14 21:01
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Except that it could be that the creator is no longer existent."

    And the evidence for that..?

    😉[/b]
    There is no evidence for the creator being extinct. What I mean that the evidential case for a creator does not imply that the creator survived the creative act. Yet another premise would be needed, for example the idea that everything that exists requires a sustainer.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't belief faith is an evidence-based state of mind. I think evidence-based arguments for the existence of God are only convincing to the already-faithful.
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