God murdered....

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08 Dec '05 16:27

KnightWulfe
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08 Dec '05 16:27
I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this from another thread, and since this is a specific issue as part of a greater one, I am addressing it in a new thread.

For all of the Christians here....

How do you explain God murdering thousands of innocent children? It was the last of the plagues visited upon Egypt when Moses was pleading to the Pharoh to let the Israelites leave.

In case you need reference:

Exodus 11.4 - "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

That is nothing other than mass murder.
rwingett
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08 Dec '05 16:29
Originally posted by KnightWulfe
I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this from another thread, and since this is a specific issue as part of a greater one, I am addressing it in a new thread.

For all of the Christians here....

How do you explain God murdering thousands of innocent children? It was the last of the plagues visited upon Egypt when Moses was pleading to the Phar ...[text shortened]... rse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

That is nothing other than mass murder.
It's always great fun watching the hoops the christians will jump through to try and rationlize that one.
joelek
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08 Dec '05 17:05
Originally posted by rwingett
It's always great fun watching the hoops the christians will jump through to try and rationlize that one.
There's no rationalization required.

Egypt was a heathen nation, deserving of the judgment of God. They did not follow YHWH or any of his ways. He could have justly wiped the entire nation off the earth, but He didn't. He was then, as He is today, merciful in not immediately judging everyone who deserved it.

I can't believe the number of people out there that have a hard time understanding the difference between judgment and murder.
Halitose
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08 Dec '05 17:15
Originally posted by KnightWulfe
I cannot seem to get a straight answer on this from another thread, and since this is a specific issue as part of a greater one, I am addressing it in a new thread.

For all of the Christians here....

How do you explain God murdering thousands of innocent children? It was the last of the plagues visited upon Egypt when Moses was pleading to the Phar ...[text shortened]... rse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

That is nothing other than mass murder.
You want the fundy view? Well here goes:

1) God created this whole universe; who are you to say what He may or may not do? He is the giver of life and can just as easily take it away.
2) Murder is taking life that hasn't been sanctioned by a higher judicial/executive power. Is the dude who presses the button on the electric chair a murderer? No, because he is exercising his power granted by a court of law. Is a soldier in war a murderer? No. He is exercising his power granted by his commander in chief. So technically, as God is the ultimate judicial/executive power, He cannot commit murder, He exercises His own power.

Er...hmm...that's it, I guess.

😛 to you rwingo, was it that bad a hoop-jump?
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08 Dec '05 17:17
Originally posted by Halitose
You want the fundy view? Well here goes:

1) God created this whole universe; who are you to say what He may or may not do?
Isn't this exactly the position taken by the book of Job? How do 'non-fundy' christians get around this?
KnightWulfe
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08 Dec '05 17:19
Originally posted by joelek
There's no rationalization required.

Egypt was a heathen nation, deserving of the judgment of God. They did not follow YHWH or any of his ways. He could have justly wiped the entire nation off the earth, but He didn't. He was then, as He is today, merciful in not immediately judging everyone who deserved it.

I can't believe the number of people out there that have a hard time understanding the difference between judgment and murder.
Would not then India be another heathen nation? Based upon your words, you could murder a billion East Indians and be justified in the eyes of your God, since they are heathen Hindu.

Sorry....doesn't cut it.
Halitose
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08 Dec '05 17:20
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Isn't this exactly the position taken by the book of Job? How do 'non-fundy' christians get around this?
The Euthyphro Dilemma, eh?
KnightWulfe
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08 Dec '05 17:21
Originally posted by Halitose
[b]2) Murder is taking life that hasn't been sanctioned by a higher judicial/executive power. Is the dude who presses the button on the electric chair a murderer? No, because he is exercising his power granted by a court of law. Is a soldier in war a murderer? No. He is exercising his power granted by his commander in chief. So technically, as God is the ulti ...[text shortened]... cutive power, He cannot commit murder, He exercises His own power. [b]

See my statement above....
Halitose
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08 Dec '05 17:23
Originally posted by KnightWulfe
???
Nemesio
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08 Dec '05 17:29
Originally posted by Halitose
1) God created this whole universe; who are you to say what He may or may not do? He is the giver of life and can just as easily take it away.

So the God who gave us moral guidelines is in no way bound to them?
God can lie, steal, cheat, murder, and fornicate with utter impunity (after all,
He made us, right)?

If God can perform acts which run contrary to His Law, then who is to say
that 'His Word' isn't one big lie?

2) Murder is taking life that hasn't been sanctioned by a higher judicial/executive power. Is the dude who presses the button on the electric chair a murderer? No, because he is exercising his power granted by a court of law. Is a soldier in war a murderer? No. He is exercising his power granted by his commander in chief. So technically, as God is the ultimate judicial/executive power, He cannot commit murder, He exercises His own power.

I think you'll notice that many of the relatives of victims of murder are very angry.
A lady recently said, 'He can't die fast enough for me.' Capital punishment is about
providing relief or vindication, but is driven by anger as much as justice. And we
know that even being angry at our brother who sins against us is a sin, much less
killing our brother.

And, just because authority is granted to someone on earth to take away life doesn't
make it moral. After all, Saddam Hussein had power and used it to kill thousands
through his army. Certainly you recognize these as murders, despite his authority.

So it is not authority that makes killing morally permissible. If I kill someone who
is attacking my son, I don't have 'authority' granted by any governmental authority
to act on his behalf and protect him.

In any event, God calls us to transcend anger, to embrace forgiveness, and to live
lives of peace and compassion. Capital punishment fails in that regard.

Please note that forgiveness doesn't entail absolution from justice. But capital
punishment is not justice (especially how it is inconsistently applied in America),
it is vindication.

Finally, if we embrace the notion that God is everlasting mercy, compassion and love,
then envisioning a God who can and does murder with impunity is absurd.

Nemesio
Halitose
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08 Dec '05 17:44
Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by Halitose
[b]1) God created this whole universe; who are you to say what He may or may not do? He is the giver of life and can just as easily take it away.

So the God who gave us moral guidelines is in no way bound to them?
God can lie, steal, cheat, murder, and fornicate with utter impunity (after all,
He made us, right ...[text shortened]... on and love,
then envisioning a God who can and does murder with impunity is absurd.

Nemesio[/b]
Finally, if we embrace the notion that God is everlasting mercy, compassion and love,
then envisioning a God who can and does murder with impunity is absurd.

So you can't believe in a hell, as this would also be immoral - it's not loving or compassionate is it?

How do you divorce God's love and mercy from His justice? Perfect love, perfect justice - a fearsome/wonderful paradox.

If God can perform acts which run contrary to His Law, then who is to say
that 'His Word' isn't one big lie?

As I pointed out, murder is not an all-inclusive taking of human life. Do you hold the position that any taking of human life is immoral in any/every case possible? Self-defence? If not, who decides the exceptions?

Could you perhaps also give your view of the Genesis account, instead of only attacking mine?
joelek
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08 Dec '05 17:52
Originally posted by KnightWulfe
Would not then India be another heathen nation? Based upon your words, you could murder a billion East Indians and be justified in the eyes of your God, since they are heathen Hindu.

Sorry....doesn't cut it.
No, I couldn't murder anyone in the eyes of my God and be justified. I would not be following the principles He has given me by which to live.

There's a big difference between God ending life in judgment and me going around being some religious vigilante. I have no authorization from God to do any such thing.

By the way, there are a lot of Christians in India. There are just a lot more Hindu. My sister-in-law, who grew up Hindu, is now a true Christian.

As far as not "cutting it" goes, that's not really my problem. If you don't think God's ways of doing things "cut it," I'd say you have a bigger issue.
joelek
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08 Dec '05 17:57
If you have Firefox, type dict murder in the address bar. If you're still running Internet Explorer, go to www.dictionary.com and type murder in the search box. The first definition you'll get is:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

God's judgment is neither unlawful nor malicious.
Nemesio
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08 Dec '05 18:07
Originally posted by Halitose
So you can't believe in a hell, as this would also be immoral - it's not loving or compassionate is it?

Precisely.

How do you divorce God's love and mercy from His justice? Perfect love, perfect justice - a fearsome/wonderful paradox.

Purgatory: it imposes justice to those who have committed sins in proportion
to the sin committed, but grants them final absolution, thus perfect justice and
love.

As I pointed out, murder is not an all-inclusive taking of human life. Do you hold the position that any taking of human life is immoral in any/every case possible? Self-defence? If not, who decides the exceptions?

Stop setting up strawmen. If I killed the first-born son of everyone in Pittsburgh,
it would be serial murder. If God does it, it is okay because He is not subject to
His own rules or has some great master plan or whatever.

Pursuant to that line of thought, no Believer can have any assurance that the Bible
is True because God is not bound to Law with respect to honesty. Perhaps lying to
you all this time was part of His master plan!

Could you perhaps also give your view of the Genesis account, instead of only attacking mine?

What Genesis account are we talking about? If you mean Exodus then my
opinion is this. I believe that the Jews were loosely imprisoned and had a great
leader in Moses lead them. I think that the Pharaoh was not keen on this, but
natural circumstances and the death of his son led him to abandon the idea. The
Jews subsequently wrote the stuff down and elaborated on it in order to give
justification to how they were able to escape.

It's all midrash to me.

Nemesio
Nemesio
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08 Dec '05 18:08
Originally posted by joelek
The [b]unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

God's judgment is neither unlawful nor malicious.[/b]
If you think it is lawful and just to kill the first-born innocents of
a nation, then you and I are talking about two different Gods.

Nemesio