God vs Satan

In the book of Revelations, it is revealed that satan will be chained up for 1000 years and man will live in peace, but then satan and his demons will be released and before long, turns mankind against God again. Then comes the final battle, where in the end Jesus Christ will cast satan in the lake of fire and he too will eventually burn up and be no more....I believe God is showing one last time, that man is in need of God and cannot survive without Him.

what the hell is going on here? there is checkbaitor and there is checkbaiter. i don't get it. i was responding to checkbaiter and i got a subsequent response from checkbaitor, and vice versa as well. in addition to eternal salvation, you also have two accounts?

regardless, i agree that eternal torture in hell is not in keeping with the supposed attributes of 'god'. but if my punishment for not acknowledging his existence is merely an end to my consciousness, then so what? that is nothing to fear for obvious reasons.

i don't know why such a god would introduce evil in the first place, and i don't think you do either. i think you have some vague notions in your head that you read in a book. but your puzzle pieces just don't fit together smoothly somehow.

Originally posted by David C
Wasn't Satan an angel once? Who fell? So, no...the appropriate question would be why god allows him to continue to exist, if all he's going to do is wreak havoc on god's children. And god's puppies. And burn god's biscuits. And dent the fender on god's '67 cherry red Camaro.

i just want to correct you sir on one thing, its actually a 1969 Camaro and its painted a metallic gold, not cherry red. thank you.

LemmonJello....if my punishment for not acknowledging his existence is merely an end to my consciousness, then so what? that is nothing to fear for obvious reasons.

Understood


LemmonJello....i don't know why such a god would introduce evil in the first place, and i don't think you do either. i think you have some vague notions in your head that you read in a book. but your puzzle pieces just don't fit together smoothly somehow.[/b]

The book is called the bible....and it not only fits, it clears up many apparent contradictions.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ok...maybe the example wasn't the best one, but part of the equation.
God invented life...He knows the best way to live life....we want to live our own lives....He created man for himself....life is ultimately fulfilled and enjoyed by loving/worshipping the creator of life.
Life has been setup in such a way (because of Adam's sin) that all are going ...[text shortened]... examples of the love of God. God is represented by this father, who welcomed back his lost son.

If god did not forsee the occurance of evil, then he is not omniscient.
If god allowed evil to occur and allows it to continue occuring, then he is not omnibenevolent.
If god is unable to stop evil from occuring, then he is not omnipotent.
If god could not design a world that did not have to rely on evil to accomplish his goals, then he is not omnipotent.

The christian god is commonly said to be omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. In other words, he is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. "The Problem of Evil", as hastily sketched out above, demonstrates that god's actions are not compatible with these traits. At the most, god could posess only two of the three traits commonly ascribed to him. Hence, the 3 "O" god is a logical contradiction that cannot exist.

There is a thread (initiated by Bbarr) specifically about the problem of evil which spells out the whole thing in much greater detail than I have done above. I would suggest reading it.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
Why is God blamed for killing and allowing all the evil in the world and Satan gets away free and clear? God is blamed for tornadoes, earthquakes, evil in general and satan is rarely mentioned. If God is the cause of all the evil in the world....what is Satan's role?
And yet the bible claims...
2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is ve ...[text shortened]... 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
(NKJ)

No one claims Satan is omnipotent and omniscient. God is supposedly stronger and more knowlegable; infinitely so; so has no excuses.

Originally posted by rwingett
If god did not forsee the occurance of evil, then he is not omniscient.
If god allowed evil to occur and allows it to continue occuring, then he is not omnibenevolent.
If god is unable to stop evil from occuring, then he is not omnipotent.
If god could not design a world that did not have to rely on evil to accomplish his goals, then he is not omnipote ...[text shortened]... s out the whole thing in much greater detail than I have done above. I would suggest reading it.

God is omniscient and He did forsee evil....I'm not certain what you mean by omnibenevolent ...allowing evil to occur for a purpose does not make God evil....maybe allowing is not the right word.....God cannot go against Himself...Adam transferred all power and authority to satan, through deception in the garden. God cannot legally just take it back. He would not then be righteous....
The battle between God and Satan has legal ramifications involved in order for God to maintain His Righteousness. I have heard it said that in a court of law, Gos is justified for His actions.
You are looking at this in human terms...There is much more involved here. There is a spiritual war raging on in the unseen world all around us everyday....in war there are casualties you might say. Thus humans get hurt, die, etc. Yes God is all powerful, but He cannot be unjust, lie, etc...He is not some might say.."an indian giver" He cannot promise you something and then take it away.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
No one claims Satan is omnipotent and omniscient. God is supposedly stronger and more knowlegable; infinitely so; so has no excuses.

Both observations are true...see my earlier post.

Love in the heart is the good.........Hatred in the heart is the evil......

the force of hatred leads ..to the sins......and the evils

It's not being forced to Love......it is the force of Love

How can Love in the heart create evil.........?

God IS love..........how can love create evil?

If one does not believe God is Love......it is still the love in the heart that creates goodness....it is with hatred in the heart, that there is none.

the message is simple......always was simple

Love thy neighbour........as thyself

Love is the omnipotent

gil

Originally posted by checkbaiter
God is omniscient and He did forsee evil....I'm not certain what you mean by omnibenevolent ...allowing evil to occur for a purpose does not make God evil....maybe allowing is not the right word.....God cannot go against Himself...Adam transferred all power and authority to satan, through deception in the garden. God cannot legally just take it back. He ...[text shortened]... s not some might say.."an indian giver" He cannot promise you something and then take it away.

God forsaw that evil would occur. He had the power to prevent it from happening but did not.

God created Adam (so the story goes). God knew even before then that Adam would sin. God could have created Adam differently so that he wouldn't sin, or could have intervened to thwart Satan from tempting Adam. But god allowed all these events to transpire with the full knowledge that they would result in evil (it's not physically possible to deceive an omniscient god). The inescapable conclusion is that god wanted these events to transpire exactly as they did. God wanted evil in this world.

Omnibenevolent means all-loving. That should have been clear from my previous post. An all-loving god would not want evil to occur, or would not allow its continuance if there was a means to acheiving his goal which could have been accomplished without resorting to the use of evil. If god is all-powerful, he should have been able to create a world that functions in any number of ways. To say that he could not come up with a solution to the problem that did not rely on the use of evil is to say that he is not omnipotent.

If god either causes or allows evil to occur, then he is not omnibenevolent (all-loving).
If god cannot prevent evil from occuring then he is not omnipotent (all-powerful).
If god did not forsee the occurance of evil, or that Adam would sin, then he is not omniscient (all-knowing).

It is not possible to reconcile the presence of evil in the world with an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing god. You can only have two out of three. The conclusion is that the christian god is a logical contradiction that cannot exist, or that god must lack at least one of the three traits traditionally attributed to him, which means he really isn't much of a god.

Originally posted by gentlegil
Love in the heart is the good.........Hatred in the heart is the evil......

the force of hatred leads ..to the sins......and the evils

It's not being forced to Love......it is the force of Love

How can Love in the heart create evil.........?

God IS love..........how can love create evil?

If one does not believe God is Love......it is still ...[text shortened]... .....always was simple

Love thy neighbour........as thyself

Love is the omnipotent

gil

Prov 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
(NKJ)

Ps 97:10
10 You who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; he delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.
(NKJ)

Prov 8:13
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.
(NKJ)

Prov 8:17-20
17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me, enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of justice,
(NKJ)

Yes God is love and He hates evil!...Like I said earlier He didn't create robots...we have to make a choice...What many people do not realize is that we serve God or Satan, there is no in between...Satan settles for indirect worship...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Prov 16:4
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
(NKJ)

Ps 97:10
10 You who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; he delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.
(NKJ)

Prov 8:13
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I ...[text shortened]... ze is that we serve God or Satan, there is no in between...Satan settles for indirect worship...

God could defeat Satan, but chooses not to. We can only conclude that god enjoys having Satan around (assuming, for the moment, that they both exist).

Originally posted by rwingett
God could defeat Satan, but chooses not to. We can only conclude that god enjoys having Satan around (assuming, for the moment, that they both exist).

He has defeated Satan through Jesus Christ. The times are not yet fulfilled when satan will be cast in the lake of fire...until then we are free to choose one or the other, while there is still time before the end.
God does not "want" evil...as I said He allowed it for a purpose...so that you could see both sides...He has made a way, which is Jesus Christ...and as I also said earlier, you are looking at this through a limited point of view...I can not say I understand it completely...As I read the bible and study it I learn bits and pieces...not all study the bible in depth, thus the simple records in the bible of salvation, etc.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
He has defeated Satan through Jesus Christ. The times are not yet fulfilled when satan will be cast in the lake of fire...until then we are free to choose one or the other, while there is still time before the end.
God does not "want" evil...as I said He allowed it for a purpose...so that you could see both sides...He has made a way, which is Jesus Ch ...[text shortened]... ces...not all study the bible in depth, thus the simple records in the bible of salvation, etc.

I have no interest in debating the Problem of Evil with you interminably. My only point was to show that it's a very powerful argument that is frequently used against the traditional conception of the christian god. As this is probably not the last time you will hear of it, it would do you good to fully understand the argument and the theodicies that try to counter it. Your self-professed incomplete understanding of the matter is deeper than you suspect.

Originally posted by rwingett
I have no interest in debating the Problem of Evil with you interminably. My only point was to show that it's a very powerful argument that is frequently used against the traditional conception of the christian god. As this is probably not the last time you will hear of it, it would do you good to fully understand the argument and the theodicies that try t ...[text shortened]... unter it. Your self-professed incomplete understanding of the matter is deeper than you suspect.

I agree on all your points....at least we agree on something...however my incomplete understanding of the matter is not self professed....there are many more articulate people than I. And yes I would need to study it more before I can debate it here.