Originally posted by doodinthemoodWhat attributes of God are dispensible as opposed to indispensible? What attributes, when deleted, are sufficient to make God no longer God, and what attributes are not?
Correct. It means, if there is a god, he cannot be benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent at the same time. But nothing can ever mean there is no god.
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeThat's a good topic of debate. I'm using god as in any deity which could conceivably have created the universe.
What attributes of God are dispensible as opposed to indispensible? What attributes, when deleted, are sufficient to make God no longer God, and what attributes are not?
Originally posted by whodeyWell, I'm not omniscient. So assuming I'm God, the only two powers I have are benevolence and omnipotence. With those powers I could probably improve things a heck of a lot, but not to perfection, because there would be negativity I wouldn't be aware of.
So if you were God, how would you set things up? Would you make every one behave?
Were I also omniscient, then anything against the moral absolute and other perfections would be eradicated. Indeed, it would be paradoxical to suggest I would be capable of doing anything else - Infinite food, infinite happiness, infinite life. Basically, perfection creates perfection.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodOK, so lets assume you make Adam and Eve and they rebel. Are they instinantly erredicated or are they not given the choice to rebel against you in the first place?
Were I also omniscient, then anything against the moral absolute and other perfections would be eradicated. Indeed, it would be paradoxical to suggest I would be capable of doing anything else - Infinite food, infinite happiness, infinite life. Basically, perfection creates perfection.[/b]
Originally posted by whodeyWell, if I'm omniscient, then I would be able to see whether or not they were going to rebel before I make them. If I'm omnipotent then I can see whether or not they will rebel for every possibility of creation. If I'm benevolent, then I will choose the pair where they do not rebel.
OK, so lets assume you make Adam and Eve and they rebel. Are they instinantly erredicated or are they not given the choice to rebel against you in the first place?
(If you disagree with these points, please say rather than just asking another question.)
Originally posted by doodinthemoodSo from your post it appears that your creation would not have the capacity to rebel against you. So basically free will would be allowed so long as you could manipulate such "free will"? Maybe it should be called, not so free will so long as they serve my purposes?
Well, if I'm omniscient, then I would be able to see whether or not they were going to rebel before I make them. If I'm omnipotent then I can see whether or not they will rebel for every possibility of creation. If I'm benevolent, then I will choose the pair where they do not rebel.
(If you disagree with these points, please say rather than just asking another question.)
Originally posted by whodeyWell, free will is impossible in any system where omnipotence is present. If something has omnipotence, then it knows every future "choice" that will be made. In this case, how can they be considered choices? Omnipotence renders free will impossible, thus it is true, in perfection, there would not be free will.
So from your post it appears that your creation would not have the capacity to rebel against you. So basically free will would be allowed so long as you could manipulate such "free will"? Maybe it should be called, not so free will so long as they serve my purposes?
I'd also much rather you argue against one of the points rather than just asking more and more questions on a different theme each time.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodThis is where I disagree. If God is all powerful then why could he not make it so that we could have a will independent of his own? Are you saying that an all powerful God is incapable of doing so?
[b]Well, free will is impossible in any system where omnipotence is present.
As for not asking questions, I find this unaviodable because your judgemental propositions naturally produce them. In fact, you might say that what is good for the gander is good for the goose. 😉
Originally posted by doodinthemoodI think you mean 'omniscience' instead of 'omnipotence'.
Well, free will is impossible in any system where omnipotence is present. If something has omnipotence, then it knows every future "choice" that will be made. In this case, how can they be considered choices? Omnipotence renders free will impossible, thus it is true, in perfection, there would not be free will.
I'd also much rather you argue against ...[text shortened]... of the points rather than just asking more and more questions on a different theme each time.
If I am omniscient, then free will is not a possibility, as I would know any future choices. You don't seem to have appreciated that point.
Essentially, you're questioning my omnipotence to deny omniscience. Which is correct to realise as a paradox in omnipotence. You're asking little more than "Can God create a cheeseburger so big even he couldn't eat it?"
This is because omnipotence goes against the logic of reality, but we weren't discussing the real. We were discussing the hypothetical situation of a perfect God, and that God being me. These things cannot be real, but if they were true, then the restraints I've mentioned would hold.
edit: swissgambit's right. I used the wrong word in my last post. Just checked and I used the right one in this one so that's ok. It explains why whodey went off on a different tangent anyway. I won't go back and edit it else it'll make whodey look like he avoided a point, when it was actually my fault for wording it incorrectly.
Originally posted by doodinthemoodI think you’ve laid it out rather well, though.
If I am omniscient, then free will is not a possibility, as I would know any future choices. You don't seem to have appreciated that point.
Essentially, you're questioning my omnipotence to deny omniscience. Which is correct to realise as a paradox in omnipotence. You're asking little more than "Can God create a cheeseburger so big even he couldn't k like he avoided a point, when it was actually my fault for wording it incorrectly.
“Free will” seems to become a kind of nebulous concept. All my choices are constrained by the general existential conditions. For example, I do not have perfect foreknowledge of the outcomes of most of my choices. If, in the Adam and Eve story, they were not created so as to have perfect foreknowledge of their choices, then their “free will” is existentially constrained at the get-go.
Or, to use a trivial example, I might wish that I could fly simply by flapping my arms—but no matter how much I “will” it, it is not possible. I might “will” that the girl of my dreams fall in love with me—but my “willing” it does not make it so. On and on.
So, God (for the sake of argument) created a world in which my will is constrained in many ways. He could have, under your argument, created a different world in which my will would be constrained in different ways—not necessarily more constrained, only differently constrained.
One assumes that an omnipotent and omniscient (and benevolent) God would create the best of all possible worlds... And, of, course, therein lies the dilemma.
a potentially interesting discussion.... God or no God? god vs. god... satan vs. God?
How about this theory... There is a god. He does care and Love us. People believe in a God but then some say, "why all the suffering"? Maybe it is as simple as this... the theory being that if you believe in God and do good deeds you go to heaven right? and if you do wrong you can repent and go to heaven right? in its simplest form that is what most religions are about yes? Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
Now if belief was enough and you could repent anyway... then that would mean the devil could be forgiven and go to heaven! the real test is if you believe and hold fast to God and continue to strive to do good in the face of SUFFERING. Do you think belief is enough and that God wont test you to see exactly how strong your faith is?
And since God created Satan.. surely the devil has no power to do anything unless to those who listen to his whisperings...
A quote i'd like to share with you regarding repentance.... read it somewhere but cant remember who said it .." Be sincere in your repentance, for slickness of the tongue is the repentance of liars".