Godspeaks.com

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think God is interested in how we live our lives and how we apply the 'love thy neihbour' rule. Doctrinal differences are for Pharisees to quibble about.

Actually it's about a bit more than that. It's not just the "how" we live our lives but also "why" we do it. The Bible shows us that God is consistently interested in our motives and the condition of our hearts.

For example , a man can give his entire wealth away to the poor and spend his life working in africa curing Aids , but if his "charity" is self seeking and an attempt to gain notoriety or prestige or to try and "buy" a place in heaven with God then his righteousness could be questioned. It would not be the charity or compassion that Jesus talked of.

Do you understand this point that it's not just about what we do but WHY we do it?

Originally posted by kirksey957
Well, according to the Apostle Paul there was a lot of doctrinal error.

There certainly was. That's why Paul admonishes us to, "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

Is that "faith", "...once delivered unto the saints", so polluted and watered down today that we can't know it or preach it or teach it?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you are demonstrating part of the problem with Christianity. Every little sect thinks they are right and the rest of Christianity is wrong or not perfect. Try to see the good in what people do and let Christ be the judge of who is right and who is wrong.

Indeed Christ will judge us.

That's why we should all the more "...earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
No.
And thank God we're not saved by "grace through faith and perfect doctrine." Just grace through faith alone.

Salvation is not what is in question here. What is in question is that body of doctrine we as saved persons follow in order to live the Christian life.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Actually it's about a bit more than that. It's not just the "how" we live our lives but also "why" we do it. The Bible shows us that God is consistently interested in our motives and the condition of our hearts.

For example , a man can give his entire wealth away to the poor and spend his life working in africa curing Aids , but if his "charity" ...[text shortened]...

Do you understand this point that it's not just about what we do but WHY we do it?

I think you are demonstrating part of the problem with Christianity. Every little sect thinks they are right and the rest of Christianity is wrong or not perfect. Try to see the good in what people do and let Christ be the judge of who is right and who is wrong.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you are demonstrating part of the problem with Christianity. Every little sect thinks they are right and the rest of Christianity is wrong or not perfect. Try to see the good in what people do and let Christ be the judge of who is right and who is wrong.

In the post you responded to I do not see any sign of knightmeister acting like a little sect telling everyone else they are wrong. I think knightmeister has a very valid point. Jesus does not simply list all the good things you should do, he says 'love your neighbor'. Doing something nice for someone else is not equivalent to loving them. If the motivation is wrong then it is not love. Obviously I do not know the Hebrew/Greek word that was used for 'love' but I am fairly sure that whatever it was it implied that you should experience an emotion that causes you to care for your neighbor.
'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' at face value could be taken as a behavioral command but it can also be taken as Jesus attempting to teach us the reason behind why we should have certain morals.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you are demonstrating part of the problem with Christianity. Every little sect thinks they are right and the rest of Christianity is wrong or not perfect. Try to see the good in what people do and let Christ be the judge of who is right and who is wrong.

You seem to have completely missed the point (as whitey has pointed out as well)

Do you deny that Jesus was interested in motive and what happens in the heart as well as what we "DO"? Why do you think he asked that we give to charity in secret?

It seems crystal clear to me that acts of "kindness" can quite easily become self serving and lacking in compassion. The history of Christianity is full of sects and divisions but it is also full of so called "acts of christian kindness" that were actually cruel or uncaring or at best motivated by other forces than compassion.

Remember St Paul's exhortation?

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. IF I GIVE ALL I POSSESS TO THE POOR and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


So Rajk , what we have to ask ourselves is what exactly IS a good work? If an act is not arise from the spring of love and compassion within us what is the act itself. Jehovah's Witnesses for example see themselves as spreading good works and kindness to men. To me it's just a load of self serving point scoring done by people who are afraid of God and want to appease him by scoring browny points.

Christians can do all sorts of "good works" but if they are only doing it because they hope God will then look at them favourably as a result then it's not love and it's not compassion - it's self serving. It looks "loving" but the act is focussed on self , not the other person.

I think there's a whole series of questions you need to ask yourself. My guess is that you won't though. You might not be ready to ask them yet.

My point, KM and TW, is twofold:

1. Resist the temptation to claim that others are wrong and only Christians (or born again Christians) can do good works while the good works of the rest of the world are 'filthy rags', which KM and others have repeatedly said.

2. Let Christ be the judge of the motives for good works. You cant know the motives, Christ can.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Jehovah's Witnesses for example see themselves as spreading good works and kindness to men. To me it's just a load of self serving point scoring done by people who are afraid of God and want to appease him by scoring browny points.

Thats way out of line. Are you honestly insulting all Jehovah's Witnesses? The ones I have known (good friends some of them) have been very honest and loving and in no way did I get the impression that it was about 'brownie points'. Some of the most self serving people I have met were what we called 'BA's' at university ie those who made a big point about being 'born again' - note that I am not saying they were all self serving by any means.

In Zambia Jehovah's Witnesses have a reputation for being honest.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My point, KM and TW, is twofold:

1. Resist the temptation to claim that others are wrong and only Christians (or born again Christians) can do good works while the good works of the rest of the world are 'filthy rags', which KM and others have repeatedly said.

When did I say or imply that only Christians can do good works? I am an atheist in case you didn't know. All I have said is that Jesus' message clearly teaches that it is important to love your neighbor and I am pointing out that doing good works for your neighbor for the wrong reasons is not equivalent to loving him.

2. Let Christ be the judge of the motives for good works. You cant know the motives, Christ can.
I am not judging anyones motives at all, not claiming to know what peoples motives are. I was merely commenting on a situation where the motives are particular ones.

Originally posted by twhitehead
When did I say or imply that only Christians can do good works? I am an atheist in case you didn't know. All I have said is that Jesus' message clearly teaches that it is important to love your neighbor and I am pointing out that doing good works for your neighbor for the wrong reasons is not equivalent to loving him.

[b]2. Let Christ be the judge of t ...[text shortened]... motives are. I was merely commenting on a situation where the motives are particular ones.[/b]

The first point was directed to KM and his ilk ... sorry.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Thats way out of line. Are you honestly insulting all Jehovah's Witnesses? The ones I have known (good friends some of them) have been very honest and loving and in no way did I get the impression that it was about 'brownie points'. Some of the most self serving people I have met were what we called 'BA's' at university ie those who made a big point about ...[text shortened]... ving by any means.

In Zambia Jehovah's Witnesses have a reputation for being honest.

I guess we all go by what our personal experience is. BA christians can also be very self serving. It's not a general point about JW's , sorry if it sounded like it was.

My point is that any system of thinking that involves a crude reward structure of some sort is bound to interfere with the purity of motivation Christ wants us to have.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My point, KM and TW, is twofold:

1. Resist the temptation to claim that others are wrong and only Christians (or born again Christians) can do good works while the good works of the rest of the world are 'filthy rags', which KM and others have repeatedly said.

2. Let Christ be the judge of the motives for good works. You cant know the motives, Christ can.

1. I am not claiming to say which good works are rags and which aren't. I have no problem with the idea that an Atheist can perform a good work of great compassion which delights the heart of God , whilst a Christian can perform a "good" work which is nothing to God. I have no temptation to resist.

2. Whilst Christ is the judge and the only ultimate judge of men we can get a great degree of self knowledge about our own individual motives. Christ has also given many the gift of discernment and the ability to make judgement calls regarding whether men are sincere or not in their motives. Just as in the matter of sin , we are called to make some judgements.

Where you make the mistake is that you realise that Christ is the ultimate judge of men and of who is righteous and unrighteous. We cannot make that judgement , but we can discern when some acts are not pure or lack compassion or come from the wrong motivations.

I think you often use the "leave it to Christ" argument as a way out from really thinking about certain issues you don't want to consider (like motivations) It's way too easy just to say ...."Let Christ be the judge of the motives for good works. You cant know the motives, Christ can"

In addition , it seems totally reasonable to assume that if you set up a theology that says..." a man must perform x,y,z good works or his salvation is in doubt " then many men in that system will have fear at the back of their minds when performing x,y,z.

I can get my children to do all kinds of "good works" if I threaten them with certain actions if they don't. If I threatened them with eternal damnation (and they believed it) I'm pretty sure I could get them to do any number of "good works". But could they show genuine , spontaneous compassion in such a system?

Ask yourself Rajk , next time you do a good work. Would God stop loving you if you didn't do it? Are you doing it out of a pure motive , or have you got half an eye on your own salvation? Is it fear , achievement or inadequacy driving your actions? Or is it a heart of love and compassion?

Maybe such questions are beyond you , maybe you cannot know your own "motives" - just leave it all to christ and stay ignorant if you want to - then you can just keep doing stuff with no idea why you are really doing it. Is that the Way?

Originally posted by knightmeister
....In addition , it seems totally reasonable to assume that if you set up a theology that says..." a man must perform x,y,z good works or his salvation is in doubt " then many men in that system will have fear at the back of their minds when performing x,y,z. ..

Christ was very clear on that point ... that if you dont do good works your salvation is in doubt.

Originally posted by knightmeister
...but we can discern when some acts are not pure or lack compassion or come from the wrong motivations. ...

You think you can. You might be right sometimes and you certainly will be wrong sometimes. Its best not to judge the motives of others. In fact what does it profit you to take to trouble to say that Mr X is giving that charity to get a tax break. Why bother? It might cross your mind, but going around finding fault unnecessarily is worthless. And many Christians do it.