1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    06 Dec '08 19:29
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Christ was very clear on that point ... that if you dont do good works your salvation is in doubt.
    Very true , but he did not preach that we should do good works because we fear for our salvation , he actually preached that our good works should be an expression of the compassion and love within us.

    If there are no good works then our compassion can be doubted and thus our salvation. Most of his criticism was reserved for the "religious" of their day who thought that adhering to religious codes and practices was what God required rather than actual good works.

    Are your good works performed because you fear for your own salvation? Or are they an expression of your compassion and love for God?

    I'm curious....
  2. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    06 Dec '08 19:41
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You think you can. You might be right sometimes and you certainly will be wrong sometimes. Its best not to judge the motives of others. In fact what does it profit you to take to trouble to say that Mr X is giving that charity to get a tax break. Why bother? It might cross your mind, but going around finding fault unnecessarily is worthless. And many Christians do it.
    If Mrs X is giving to charity for a tax break is that a "good work" in your book that Christ would count as righteousness?

    I tend not to judge the motives of those I don't know very well . I reserve most of my analysis of motives for myself where I have a better idea what's going on.

    Having said that , once one looks hard at oneself one usually gets a decent idea of the potential motives of others. I think it's very important why people do things , infact it's central to many things.

    Is a work colleague being genuinely supportive or just manipulating you to get up the ladder? Does a friend really care or just afraid to say they are bored with your moaning? Is the USA really in Iraq to help or are they just after the oil? Do the local church want you to know Christ or are they just interested in increasing their numbers so that their church stays afloat?

    All these questions and more are really important to ask. It's not about finding fault in anyone , it's just about being a bit less naive about human nature and realising that there are all sorts of potential reasons why people might do "good works".

    If you open your eyes you will see clues as to peoples motivations. Do you prefer to keep your eyes closed? Maybe these are questions you have never asked of your own self. If not then I suggest you start asking them. Don't expect it to be comfortable though , you might find some of your actions are more self serving than you dared to think.
  3. PenTesting
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    06 Dec '08 21:01
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    If Mrs X is giving to charity for a tax break is that a "good work" in your book that Christ would count as righteousness?

    I tend not to judge the motives of those I don't know very well . I reserve most of my analysis of motives for myself where I have a better idea what's going on.

    Having said that , once one looks hard at oneself one usuall ...[text shortened]... , you might find some of your actions are more self serving than you dared to think.
    Good for you. Have fun.
  4. PenTesting
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    06 Dec '08 21:04
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Very true , but he did not preach that we should do good works because we fear for our salvation , he actually preached that our good works should be an expression of the compassion and love within us.

    If there are no good works then our compassion can be doubted and thus our salvation. Most of his criticism was reserved for the "religious" of thei ...[text shortened]... salvation? Or are they an expression of your compassion and love for God?

    I'm curious....
    I dont ask people questions about their personal conduct or behaviour, neither will I answer such questions. This forum is to discuss religious issues, not each other.
  5. PenTesting
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    06 Dec '08 22:13
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Very true , but he did not preach that we should do good works because we fear for our salvation , he actually preached that our good works should be an expression of the compassion and love within us......
    Do you have some references to support these two points ?
    Or are they just another of your commonsense interpretation of the Bible?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    07 Dec '08 18:44
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont ask people questions about their personal conduct or behaviour, neither will I answer such questions. This forum is to discuss religious issues, not each other.
    Like thinkOfOne before you , you seem incapable of joined up thinking. You do not see the connection between your own personal experiences and your "religion" .

    If you choose to see a man's motivation as not relevant and avoid uncomfortable questions then your "religion" is weak and ill thought out.

    I've wasted enough time trying to prise open ToOne's intransigent and closed mind to waste more time trying to get you to think and respond like a human being.

    I ask one more time - Do you regard Mrs X's giving of money to charity for the purposes of tax breaks a "good" work that Christ will accredit to her as righteousness? If not why not?
  7. PenTesting
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    07 Dec '08 23:05
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Like thinkOfOne before you , you seem incapable of joined up thinking. You do not see the connection between your own personal experiences and your "religion" .

    If you choose to see a man's motivation as not relevant and avoid uncomfortable questions then your "religion" is weak and ill thought out.

    I've wasted enough time trying to prise open ...[text shortened]... reaks a "good" work that Christ will accredit to her as righteousness? If not why not?
    Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

    Thats the crux of the matter with good works .. dont do it to be seen of men otherwise God will not reward you. From that its reasonable to also state that if we do good works not to be seen of men then God may reward us.

    As for the rest of your post .... Im really not interested in discussions of a personal nature. Neither am I interested in continuing with this discussion. I have seen what you did with ToO and in my opinion (and several others on this site) that you are a stalker. Whats worse is that you dont produce biblical evidence when asked. Im not interested in your 'commonsense'.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    07 Dec '08 23:31
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

    Thats the crux of the matter with good works .. dont do it to be seen of men otherwise God will not reward you. From that its reasonable to also state that if we do good works not to be seen of men then God may re ...[text shortened]... s that you dont produce biblical evidence when asked. Im not interested in your 'commonsense'.
    Your argument is so superficial. Why do you think that Jesus said the following.....?

    Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

    The answer is of course is that such righteousness is purely for show , but more than this it implies that the righteous act is done for the wrong MOTIVATION. You and I both know that Jesus would have said the same thing regarding Mrs X and her charity tax breaks HOWEVER secret they were.

    It's not secrecy that's the issue here it's motivation. You have missed the point. If I have to explain it to you then I'm almost at a loss.

    (Regarding ToO - I'm sorry if the comparison was a little haste. My experience of ToO was that when I got to a certain point with him he would run off with his ball and cry foul. I was far from the only person who experienced him as hugely stubborn. )

    Now , I ask you once again (and this is where you are starting to be a bit like ToO- but we'll see) - YOU brought up Mrs X and her charity tax breaks - so , do you think that her charity is good works? If not why?

    I will keep repeating this question at which point you are free to dismiss me as a stalker if you so wish. However , like ToO you will only be kidding yourself.
  9. PenTesting
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    08 Dec '08 01:14
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Your argument is so superficial. Why do you think that Jesus said the following.....?

    Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

    The answer is of course is that such righteousness is purely for show , but more than this it implies that the righ ...[text shortened]... iss me as a stalker if you so wish. However , like ToO you will only be kidding yourself.
    I dont think you are good at comprehension.

    I am not arguing about anything. I simply said that it profits you nothing to find fault with those who do works even those who give charity and get a tax break.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    08 Dec '08 11:38
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont think you are good at comprehension.

    I am not arguing about anything. I simply said that it profits you nothing to find fault with those who do works even those who give charity and get a tax break.
    I'm not in it for "profit" or to attack others. I'm simply exploring the truth and trying to ascertain whether you are capable of a meaningful debate.

    It seems logical to me that if Jesus didn't consider that an act of charity that was done as a public display was really worth that much then why should he consider an act of charity done for a tax break to be righteous?

    It's clear that many people do all sorts of good works for all sorts of reasons , some noble and some distasteful. You know this to be a simple fact of life and humanity (unless you are painfully naive). So do you suggest that we just pretend that all acts are the same regardless of their motivations?

    Jesus didn't think that motivations were irrelevant , you seem to think they are not that important.

    Do you think that Mrs X's act of charity is actually righteous or do you think that if it was done for a tax break then Christ looks at it differently?

    It's a simple enough question based on the hypothetical given that we know that Mrs X did give to charity for the purposes of getting a tax break. Would such a motivation devalue said act in your eyes? If not why not?

    I think you are running away from this. Search your heart and think about the challenge that this argument presents to your position.
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