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Originally posted by rwingettWe seem to be generating a tad more light than heat and making progress. Builder Job Description you provide appears to present a fundamental ongoing challenge. Virtuous conduct described has historically gone against the willful negativity and depravity grain of mankind. Simple question: What power becomes the enabler in overcoming these imbedded obstacles?
To love your neighbor as yourself. To treat the least of these among us as you would treat Him. You know, all that stuff Jesus went on about.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYour assumption is that mankind is naturally negative and depraved - that it is part of 'human nature.' I say the opposite, that mankind is naturally decent, but that he learns negativity and depravity from being raised in a negative and depraved world. They are learned traits, not inherent ones.
We seem to be generating a tad more light than heat and making progress. Builder Job Description you provide appears to present a fundamental ongoing challenge. Virtuous conduct described has historically gone against the willful negativity and depravity grain of mankind. Simple question: What power becomes the enabler in overcoming these imbedded obstacles?
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The example I always give is that of the Amish and Hutterite communities. If the propensity toward murder was an integral part of human nature, then the Amish and Hutterites would be bumping each other off at the same rate as the rest of the world. The fact that they never do is proof that the propensity toward murder is not an ingrained behavior, but that it is a learned one. Build a better world and you will raise a better man. Build the kingdom and you will raise a generation that is worthy of that kingdom.
All this whining about how it's too hard is just pathetic. Jesus never comes back because he's disgusted with your lazy, whiny attitude. Quit praying and start building. Jesus is the motivation for you to accomplish difficult tasks on your own, not the one who is going to accomplish difficult tasks for you. And if you do it, Grampy, then the spirit of Jesus will flood into that kingdom (either literally or metaphorically) and give it his blessing, and you will be at one with god (whatever that may be).
Originally posted by rwingettIf mankind is 'naturally decent', why does it not unlearn the negativity and depravity
Your assumption is that mankind is naturally negative and depraved - that it is part of 'human nature.' I say the opposite, that mankind is naturally decent, but that he learns negativity and depravity from being raised in a negative and depraved world. They are learned traits, not inherent ones.
The example I always give is that of the Amish and ...[text shortened]... etaphorically) and give it his blessing, and you will be at one with god (whatever that may be).
traits inculcated during formative years? What power enables the Amish to do so?
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyBecause mankind has been told that sitting around waiting for some celestial deity to save them is sufficient. In fact, they are told that doing anything on their own is superfluous at best and counterproductive at worst.
If mankind is 'naturally decent', why does it not unlearn the negativity and depravity
traits inculcated during formative years? What power enables the Amish to do so?
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The Amish have clearly been inspired by Jesus' message of non-violence to a far greater degree than mainstream society. The Hutterites have been inspired by Jesus' message of non-materialism to such a degree that they live communally and hold all goods in common. They are engaged in the process of building the kingdom, at least as far as they understand it.
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Originally posted by rwingettYour illustrative cultural minority examples are indisputable and helpful. Vagueness of the "mankind has been told" generalization, however, leaves me in the dark wondering... told by whom, when, where, under what conditions and why? Seems there's a nexus of countervailing forces or some universal point of recurring conflict in play. What's the root cause of the delay?
Because mankind has been told that sitting around waiting for some celestial deity to save them is sufficient. In fact, they are told that doing anything on their own is superfluous at best and counterproductive at worst.
The Amish have clearly been inspired by Jesus' message of non-violence to a far greater degree than mainstream society. The Hut n. They are engaged in the process of building the kingdom, at least as far as they understand it.
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Mankind has been told" :
Your illustrative cultural minority examples are indisputable and helpful. Vagueness of the "mankind has been told" generalization, however, leaves me in the dark wondering... told by whom, when, where, under what conditions and why? Seems there's a nexus of countervailing forces or some universal point of recurring conflict in play. What's the root cause of the delay?
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Whom : Mainstream Christianity preaches a "once saved always saved" principle and that good works has no bearing on salvation. Please GB dont start claiming that those who profess to have faith automatically do good works
WHen : when they go to church
Where : In most of the churches today
Why : The belief prevails becuase this lazy approach to salvation which is contrary to what Chist preached is what attracts 'customers'. The more members the greater the wealth of the church.
Just my 2 cents
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThey've been told by you. And by mainstream Christianity, that grace is all that's needed. No heavy lifting needed on our part. Nope. Just pray and keep on believing. As long as Christianity teaches that salvation is something that will be delivered to us, as opposed to being something we have to work for (as motivated by Jesus), then we will remain as complacent agents in the continued propagation of a fallen world.
Your illustrative cultural minority examples are indisputable and helpful. Vagueness of the "mankind has been told" generalization, however, leaves me in the dark wondering... told by whom, when, where, under what conditions and why? Seems there's a nexus of countervailing forces or some universal point of recurring conflict in play. What's the root cause of the delay?
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Originally posted by Rajk999I think you're pretty close to the mark (at least on this point).
"Mankind has been told" :
Whom : Mainstream Christianity preaches a "once saved always saved" principle and that good works has no bearing on salvation. Please GB dont start claiming that those who profess to have faith automatically do good works
WHen : when they go to church
Where : In most of the churches today
Why : The belief prevails becuas ...[text shortened]... ts 'customers'. The more members the greater the wealth of the church.
Just my 2 cents
Originally posted by Rajk999Let's not drift off course. Only significant question on the table at the moment:
"Mankind has been told" :
Whom : Mainstream Christianity preaches a "once saved always saved" principle and that good works has no bearing on salvation. Please GB dont start claiming that those who profess to have faith automatically do good works
WHen : when they go to church
Where : In most of the churches today
Why : The belief prevails becuase ...[text shortened]... 'customers'. The more members the greater the wealth of the church.
Just my 2 cents
What is the root cause of the historical conflict causing 'the kingdom's delay'?
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyPrivate property. That was mankind's original sin. When he fenced off the common bounty of the earth and said, "this is mine, and mine alone", then he set himself up in opposition to the rest of humanity and alienated himself from god (whatever that may be). From that point on, mankind has existed in a fallen state.
Let's not drift off course. Only significant question on the table at the moment:
What is the root cause of the historical conflict causing 'the kingdom's delay'?
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Jesus was not a capitalist (regardless of what the religious right says). There will no private property, profit or usury in the kingdom. When we are prepared to do as the Hutterites, and hold all goods in common, then the greatest root cause of conflict will have been removed.
Acts 2:44-47
And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
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Originally posted by rwingettImaginative, Rwingett... do you actually advocate utopian islands as the solution
Private property. That was mankind's original sin. When he fenced off the common bounty of the earth and said, "this is mine, and mine alone", then he set himself up in opposition to the rest of humanity and alienated himself from god (whatever that may be). From that point on, mankind has existed in a fallen state.
Jesus was not a capitalist (reg ...[text shortened]... or with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
and believe the concept compatible with worldwide economic realities in 2010?
Note: Where did I ever get the notion that 'disobedience' was the original sin?
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you think Jesus would have the slightest interest in the "worldwide economic realities in 2010."? Do you think he cared about the so called economic realities of his own day? No, he chased the money changers out of the temple. If you are so attached to economics, then continue propagating the world as it is. But don't expect that the kingdom will have anything in common with what economists have to say.
Imaginative, Rwingett... do you actually advocate utopian islands as the solution
and believe the concept compatible with worldwide economic realities in 2010?
Note: Where did I ever get the notion that 'disobedience' was the original sin?
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Originally posted by rwingettFew simple questions were politely asked. You've ignored each of them.
Do you think Jesus would have the slightest interest in the "worldwide economic realities in 2010."? Do you think he cared about the so called economic realities of his own day? No, he chased the money changers out of the temple. If you are so attached to economics, then continue propagating the world as it is. But don't expect that the kingdom will have anything in common with what economists have to say.