Grace is a foreign language...

Originally posted by rwingett

Oh? I'm the one who has done all the talking in this thread. I've spelled everything out as clearly as I can. Some people are never satisfied, it seems.

Rwing, sorry if the in context questions interrupted you.

Thanks for contributing to the thread's conversation.


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Originally posted by rwingett
Oh? I'm the one who has done all the talking in this thread. I've spelled everything out as clearly as I can. Some people are never satisfied, it seems.

You sound like a man who has never conversed Grampy Bobby*


*currently on vacation from under his bridge in the GF.

Originally posted by rwingett
It's clear the first Christians expected the kingdom to come within their lifetime. 2,000 years later you're still waiting. Why do you think that is? Do you think you'll still be waiting in another 2,000 years? or 20,000 years? You will be if you're relying on grace.

It is not that simple. John considered that he was already a partaker in God's kingdom: "I John your, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in Christ..." (Rev. 1:9)

John also said that already the saints had been made a kingdom: "And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father ..." (Rev. 1:6)

Paul said the saints were already transfered into the kingdom of the Son: "Who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love." (Col. 1:13)

Paul also says the normal healthy church life is also the kingdom of God today: "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17)

These passages show the apostles participating in the kingdom of God in the church age. They are waiting for a further stage of the manifestation of the present kingdom.

The writer of the book of Hebrews says that the saints have already received an unshakable kingdom: "Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace ..." (Heb. 12:28)

When Peter preached the gospel in Jerusalem he opened the door to the kingdom of God in the church age:

"I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in the heavens ..." (Matt. 16:19)

Peter used one of the keys for the Jews to enter the church and another to let the Gentiles enter.

The bottom line is that the kingdom of God is not strictly only after the second coming of Christ.

Do not listen to the discouraging ignorance of skeptics. Get to know Christ and live by grace as much and as often as possible. You CANNOT lose.

Originally posted by jaywill
It is not that simple. John considered that he was already a partaker in God's kingdom: [b]"I John your, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in Christ..." (Rev. 1:9)

John also said that already the saints had been made a kingdom: "And made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father ..." (Rev. 1:6)
is that the kingdom of God is not strictly only after the second coming of Christ.[/b]

"Grace is a foreign language from day one out of the chute. It's simplicity underwhelms us. It's turnkey completeness offends us.
We insist on getting out of the cabin to help push the jet. Earning the gift appeals to us. We crave a share of the credit."


Your thoughts on the thread's initial post premise, Jay?


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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Grace is a foreign language from day one out of the chute. It's simplicity underwhelms us. It's turnkey completeness offends us.
We insist on getting out of the cabin to help push the jet. Earning the gift appeals to us. We crave a share of the credit."


Your thoughts on the thread's initial post premise, Jay?


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I agree.

Grace is the enjoyment of God Himself to be everything we need. It is a power over the believer. But it is also a power in the believer.

And you are right that it is like a foreign language. It is foreign to the natural mind that someone else's life could blend with our own.

In one place Paul says "Not I but Christ" (See Galatians 2:20). And in another place he says "Not I but the grace of God which is with me" (See First Corinthians 15:10) .

So this grace is a Person living within the Christian and empowering that believer. It is like "power steering". His empowerment blends with the believer's movement.

The analogy of getting out to push the jet is apt. Rather we need to rid IN the jet. We need to let the "Jumbo Jesus" carry us along in Himself.

Originally posted by rwingett
Build it and He will come.

Why wouldn't you want a free gift?

Originally posted by rwingett
It's clear the first Christians expected the kingdom to come within their lifetime. 2,000 years later you're still waiting. Why do you think that is? Do you think you'll still be waiting in another 2,000 years? or 20,000 years? You will be if you're relying on grace.

Do you think 2000 years is a lot of time?

Originally posted by Phlabibit
Do you think 2000 years is a lot of time?

Yes. But I suspect you can wait another 200,000 years, or another 2,000,000 years and Jesus will still not have come back to do for you what he has already showed you how to do yourself.

Originally posted by Phlabibit
Why wouldn't you want a free gift?

The concept of a "free gift" came along well after Jesus no longer walked the Earth. If you look at the whole of the teachings of Jesus, that concept is antithetical to it.

So many buy into it because it is cheap and easy.

What's worse is it invites the worst in humanity which has been borne out in history time and again.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The concept of a "free gift" came along well after Jesus no longer walked the Earth. If you look at the whole of the teachings of Jesus, that concept is antithetical to it.

So many buy into it because it is cheap and easy.

What's worse is it invites the worst in humanity which has been borne out in history time and again.

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The concept of a "free gift" came along well after Jesus no longer walked the Earth. If you look at the whole of the teachings of Jesus, that concept is antithetical to it.
===================================

The oldest Christian writing we have are the epistles of Paul. And in these oldest writings Paul spoke of "the gift".

"For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:23)

- an earlier written statement then the four Gospels

"For by graace you have been saved through faith, and thos not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God" (Eph. 2:8)

- also an earlier written statement then the four Gospels.

"But it is not that as the offense was, so also the gracious GIFT us; for if by the offense of the one the many died, much more the grace of God and the FREE GIFT in grace of the one man Jesus Christ have abounded to the many." (Rom. 6:13)

- also an earlier writing then the four Gospels.

Verse 16 also mentions - "but the gracious GIFT is out of many offenses unto justification"

Verse 17 includes " ... those who receive the abundance of grace and of the GIFT of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

So the earliest Christian documents talk about the "free GIFT".

In the whole scheme of things it seems free from the standpoint of the forgiven sinner. From God's standpoint a tremendous price was paid to redeem the sinner out from under the curse of the law. To God there is nothing FREE about it. But from the standpoint of the receiver eternal salvation is a free gift.

So you are incorrect that the idea of the free gift came along well after Christ's earthly ministry.

Not only so, but even before the new covenant we had Old Testament utterances which foreshadowed a free gift in grace:

"Ho ! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters, And you who have no money; Come, buy and eat; Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." (Isaiah 55:1)


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So many buy into it because it is cheap and easy.
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Eternal redemption may be free. It is not cheap and should not be thought of as cheap.

Reward is not free. Gift is free from the redeemed sinner's perspective.

You seemed never to have had a well balanced view of the New Testament. Your bias colors the passages to self confirm your prejudices.

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What's worse is it invites the worst in humanity which has been borne out in history time and again.
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Whatever has been so-called "borne out in history" to fuel your accusations, doesn't change the truth of the Bible.

If every Christian that has ever existed doesn't come up to your lofty standard, it still has no effect on the "FREE GIFT in grace".

This is just your self righteous attitude "At least I am not so bad. I am much better than all these gifted Christians."

First your accusation that justification by faith as a gift always brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie.

And even if you have legitimate ground to blame some awful behavior on the cheapness of eternal redemption, God is not going to change His eternal plan for the sake of your bigotry and your accusations.

You simply lack a well balanced view of the Bible. With God there can be free gifts and responsibility also. And the teachings concerning responsibility and cooperation for "reward" do not render null and void the clear passages on the free gift of eternal salvation.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]======================================
The concept of a "free gift" came along well after Jesus no longer walked the Earth. If you look at the whole of the teachings of Jesus, that concept is antithetical to it.
===================================

The oldest Christian writing we have are the epistles of Paul. And in these oldest writings d void the clear passages on the free gift of eternal salvation.[/b]

So you are incorrect that the idea of the free gift came along well after Christ's earthly ministry.

C'mon Jaywill, when you're talking about multiple decades, it's "well after".

==================================
So many buy into it because it is cheap and easy.
==================================

Eternal redemption may be free. It is not cheap and should not be thought of as cheap.

Reward is not free. Gift is free from the redeemed sinner's perspective.

You seemed never to have had a well balanced view of the New Testament. Your bias colors the passages to self confirm your prejudices.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, it's still "cheap". Perhaps you're unaware of the meaning of the word "cheap".

from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheap
2 : gained or done with little effort <a cheap victory> <talk is cheap>

The fact is that MANY do buy into it simply because they are lead to believe that "little effort" is required on their part. Look at how it's marketed: "Don't you want eternal life? It's a free gift."

This is just your self righteous attitude "At least I am not so bad. I am much better than all these gifted Christians."

Is it because you have no refutation for what I've posted that you must resort to making completely unfounded accusations such as this?

First your accusation that justification by faith as a gift always brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie.

If anything is a lie, it is your characterization of what I posted as saying "a gift ALWAYS brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie". What I said was that it "INVITES the worst in humanity" which it does. Why the deceit?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]So you are incorrect that the idea of the free gift came along well after Christ's earthly ministry.

C'mon Jaywill, when you're talking about multiple decades, it's "well after".

==================================
So many buy into it because it is cheap and easy.
==================================

Eternal redemption may be free. It is hat it "INVITES the worst in humanity" which it does. Why the deceit?

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C'mon Jaywill, when you're talking about multiple decades, it's "well after".
============================== [/b]

Comparitively speaking to other ancient historical figures, the time sequence between the events and the writing about the events is impressively short. When Paul wrote to Corinth that 500 some brothers had been witnesses to the resurrected Jesus, only some of them had died. The majority were still alive to dispute Paul's claim if it had not been true:

"Then He appeared to over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the majority remain until now, but some have fallen asleep ..." (1 Cor. 15:6)

You should not assume that Paul's letters misrepresented Christ's and early church's teaching merely because you don't like what was taught.


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Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, it's still "cheap". Perhaps you're unaware of the meaning of the word "cheap".
================================

It is not cheap to anyone who realizes the worth and preciousness of the man Jesus. To the one who realizes that no one on earth has ever been quite like Him, His life is a marvelously expensive gift. And for the Christ to teach "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son ..." the preciousness of that giving touches many deeply. They want to surrender all to Him.

If you do not perceive the value and preciousness of God giving His only begotten Son then that is "cheap" to you. What would you suggest exists in the universe which is more valuable then the life of Jesus Christ ?

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from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheap
2 : gained or done with little effort <a cheap victory> <talk is cheap>
=================================

Jesus prepared over 33 and one half years to die for the world. In the garden of Gethsemine his instinctive impulse to save Himself caused Him to sweat drops of blood from His temples in the agony of resisting temptation.

And you have the gall to discribe this as all being done without effort ?

It is your philosophy of skepticism that is cheap, not the life and blood of Jesus.

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Is it because you have no refutation for what I've posted that you must resort to making completely unfounded accusations such as this?
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Is the accusation more unfounded then you accusing justification by faith as always bringing out the worst in man ?

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If anything is a lie, it is your characterization of what I posted as saying "a gift ALWAYS brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie". What I said was that it "INVITES the worst in humanity" which it does. Why the deceit?
==================================== [/b]

The opposite is strongly testified to. Many of very consecrated service to mankind has been because of the realization that God freely gave.

Many of forgiveness of the unforgivable was forgiven because some offended person realized that they themselves were freely forgiven in Christ.

Many an act of mercy was performed because the performer appreciated that God had mercy upon them, "freely".

A reading of the biographies of a Hudson Taylor or a George Muller or an Elizebeth and Jim Elliot will indicate what service and selfless dedication was wrought in men and women who responded to God's gracious gift of salvation.

So I turn the question to you. Why the deceit ?

(If I misread your quip or overlooked the word "likely" that's my fault) You still don't get off that easily.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
C'mon Jaywill, when you're talking about multiple decades, it's "well after".
============================== [/b]

Comparitively speaking to other ancient historical figures, the time sequence between the events and the writing about the events is impressively short. When Paul wrote to Corinth that 500 so "likely" that's my fault) You still don't get off that easily.[/b]

When I say things like:

"The fact is that MANY do buy into it simply because they are lead to believe that 'little effort' is required on their part. Look at how it's marketed: "Don't you want eternal life? It's a free gift."

it is clear that I am speaking of the effort required by those who buy into "cheap salvation". For you to continue to go on as if I wasn't, is dishonest.

Is the accusation more unfounded then you accusing justification by faith as always bringing out the worst in man ?

Do you even bother to read what others post? Once again:

If anything is a lie, it is your characterization of what I posted as saying "a gift ALWAYS brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie". What I said was that it "INVITES the worst in humanity" which it does. Why the deceit?

Is it really asking too much for you to take the trouble to comprehend what others have posted before you go off on your little rants?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
When I say things like:

"The fact is that MANY do buy into it simply because they are lead to believe that 'little effort' is required on their part. Look at how it's marketed: "Don't you want eternal life? It's a free gift."

it is clear that I am speaking of the effort required by those who buy into "cheap salvation". For you to continue to e to comprehend what others have posted before you go off on your little rants?

==================================
When I say things like, "The fact is that MANY do buy into it simply because they are lead to believe that 'little effort' is required on their part.
=================================

That may be true. But compare it to asking someone to marry you. Many a man and woman proposed marriage without realizing the depth of commitment that was involved too.

I been happily married for 33 years. When I look back on the evening I asked that woman's hand in marriage I almost shudder "Man, was I naive !!!"

Don't be angry with people or with God because the gift of salvation is received so easily from man's standpoint.

You have little confidence in the Holy Spirit. He eventuall impresses the believer that what he has received is exceedingly costly, precious, and should be valued so.

Such an unfolding realization comes from the Holy Spirit within the Christian. God is very good at being God, you know ?


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Look at how it's marketed: "Don't you want eternal life? It's a free gift.", it is clear that I am speaking of the effort required by those who buy into "cheap salvation". For you to continue to go on as if I wasn't referring to the effort required by those who buy into "cheap salvation", is dishonest.
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Okay, okay. I see your point. I have long see this point. However, look at Paul's attitude while he was shut up in prison and had to see inferior gospel work done, and that just to make him jealous.

"Some preach Christ even because of envy and strife, and some also because of good will ... But the others announce Christ out of selfish ambition, not purely, thinking to raise up allfiction in my bonds.

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truthfulness Christ is announced; and in this I rejoice; yes, and I will rejoice." (See Phil. 1:15-18)

Look at the Apostle Paul's attitude. Whether in pretense of in truthfulness, he is just glad that Jesus Christ is being preached. That is because Jesus is a living Person. The gospel preacher is just a forerunner, an announcer.

Sure, there are some bad announcers. But Jesus is a living Person. And once they meet the living Person, He will take over.

Some people wait their whole lives for the perfect Gospel preacher to come along. That person may never come. So you respond to Jesus Himself and not focus on the messenger too much.

When I went to college a Christian told me that I would never be at peace until I received Jesus. Some time latter I notice that that dude had a kind of casual girlfriend, and I raised my eyebrows a bit. I thought "What's the difference here?"

It didn't stop me from getting to know Jesus Himself. Maybe you'll meet the perfect evangelist some day. But most of us are flawed and still a work in progress.

Can't waiting around for Mr. Perfect Evangelist to share the truth of Jesus be an excuse to procrastinate a Christless life for as long as possible ?


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Do you even bother to read what others post? Once again:
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I need some improvement in the area of being sure I understand exactly what someone has written.

The point is taken.

Could you use some impovement in comprehending exactly what the New Testament is saying ?

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If anything is a lie, it is your characterization of what I posted as saying "a gift ALWAYS brings out the worst in humanity in history is a lie". What I said was that it "INVITES the worst in humanity" which it does. Why the deceit?
=============================

I did not adaquately notice the little word "likely". Sorry.

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Is it really asking too much for you to take the trouble to comprehend what others have posted before you go off on your little rants?
==================================

No "rant" now. Just a little question repeated:

What in this universe would you say exists which is more valuable and more precious then the life of Jesus Christ ?

Or do you consider the whole question not fair based on my overlooking the significance of the word "likely" ?