Originally posted by KellyJay
You are not coerced into worshipping God through the threat of
punishment! He is worthy of worship, because of the reality of the
universe it is fitting we do worship God and no other. Your punishment
is because of the sin in your life, the fact that God has made a way to
save you from your sin and you remain unthankful speaks more
about you than it does God.
Kelly

I have to disagree with you KJ. What you and epiphinehas describe is not a loving, just ruler but rather just a tyrant.

Originally posted by KellyJay
the fact that God has made a way to
save you from your sin and you remain unthankful speaks more
about you than it does God.
Kelly

Sorry, I also meant to address this but forgot. Yes, it's true that I am probably not going to be thankful to someone who "saves" me from the cruel punishment that they themselves were otherwise willing to inflict on me. And I hope that does say a lot about me -- for starters that I see no beauty or glory in submission before tyranny.

Originally posted by LemonJello
There's nothing "free" about the choice your God puts before us -- it is coercive. He simply created a forced-choice scenario whereby one either accepts him or is subjected to eternal torment. I point a flame thrower toward you and command you to love me at pain of my setting you on fire if you refuse. What's wrong with that? Love is a great thing, a submit. It's amazing how thoroughly your ideas pervert the concepts of freedom and love.

I wonder if you've made even the slightest attempt to understand what I've been trying to tell you.

Put it this way, without God's mercy you would not have any choice at all in the matter of your eternal destiny. You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions. God did not put you in that situation (being condemned by God's law), you did so yourself.

Positing God as the architect of your fall is simply not biblically accurate. By doing so you are, in effect, contending with a blatant misreading of scripture, rather than with what is actually there. That is, you are attacking a strawman of your own design; repeatedly misrepresenting the scriptural account in order feed your indignation.

Of course, it is your prerogative to pursue such ends, but it really is pointless for me to continue discussing biblical issues with you while you refuse to recognize what the bible really says.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Sorry, I also meant to address this but forgot. Yes, it's true that I am probably not going to be thankful to someone who "saves" me from the cruel punishment that they themselves were otherwise willing to inflict on me. And I hope that does say a lot about me -- for starters that I see no beauty or glory in submission before tyranny.

alle hageln den Führer. Gott ????

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I wonder if you've made even the slightest attempt to understand what I've been trying to tell you.

Put it this way, without God's mercy you would not have any choice at all in the matter of your eternal destiny. You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions. God did not put you in that situation (being condemned by God's law), yo ...[text shortened]... scussing biblical issues with you while you refuse to recognize what the bible really says.

You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions.

Does this mean that I do not stand under condemnation from the get-go, because of inherited “original sin”? And the inherited inability to be sufficiently good on my own recognizance?

(If so, discount my remarks on the other thread.)

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I wonder if you've made even the slightest attempt to understand what I've been trying to tell you.

Put it this way, without God's mercy you would not have any choice at all in the matter of your eternal destiny. You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions. God did not put you in that situation (being condemned by God's law), yo ...[text shortened]... scussing biblical issues with you while you refuse to recognize what the bible really says.

Ist das, welcher Gott zu Ihnen ist? Ein was für Mitleid, mein Freund, ein welches Mitleid

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions.

Does this mean that I do not stand under condemnation from the get-go, because of inherited “original sin”? And the inherited inability to be sufficiently good on my own recognizance?

(If so, discount my remarks on the other thread.)[/b]

Hallo, Mitreisender. Wie Ihr Reiseweiterkommen ist?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I wonder if you've made even the slightest attempt to understand what I've been trying to tell you.

Put it this way, without God's mercy you would not have any choice at all in the matter of your eternal destiny. You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions. God did not put you in that situation (being condemned by God's law), yo ...[text shortened]... scussing biblical issues with you while you refuse to recognize what the bible really says.

I understand fine, but per my comments to telerion before, I'm not so sure you believers understand all the entailments of the properties you assign to god. Suppose there exists some all-knowing, all-powerful god; then if there exists some hell where conscious minds suffer eternally; it's only because said god decreed it to be such. These circumstances are only "necessary" to the extent that he decreed them. You're not describing anything even remotely resembling mercy or love. Again, god has simply fashioned a forced-choice situation primarily, apparently, for the purposes of garnering himself attention and reverence. He doesn't love the created or take their interests to be reason-giving; if he did, he wouldn't treat them as dispensable and torture them just because they fail to meet his demand that they love him. He doesn't value or preserve the personal freedom of the created; if he did, he wouldn't coerce them with threat of horrific punishment. A person who holds guns to other people's heads will often dictate circumstances under which he will refrain from pulling the trigger: that doesn't make him merciful or a swell guy. God will refrain from pulling the trigger if the person agrees to love him. He's very needy, this god of yours.

Originally posted by josephw
Let's face it. We all know we are guilty of an offence of some kind, no matter how great or small. The Bible calls it sin. Why not come clean and admit you are a sinner?

Are you sure that's all that sin means? The word doesn't, say, imply the existence of God or something?

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]You are condemned by God's law as the result of your own actions.

Does this mean that I do not stand under condemnation from the get-go, because of inherited “original sin”? And the inherited inability to be sufficiently good on my own recognizance?

(If so, discount my remarks on the other thread.)[/b]

No.

This is an extremely difficult problem to resolve. I've been studying Romans 1-9 lately, in great depth, regarding God's law vs. God's grace; original sin vs. individual responsibility. I'll do my best to convey to you what little understanding I've gleaned from my efforts.

How are we both born into sin, and also held personally accountable for our choices? In attempting to answer this, let me first discover what it means to be righteous, according to God's word.

The simple explanation is, those who obey God's law are righteous. "For he will repay according to each one's deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" (2:6-8). "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (2:13).

Now, one could take this out of context and proclaim that God's grace through Christ is unnecessary, and Paul is simply affirming what Jews have known all along, that those who obey God's law are righteous, and those who do not are wicked. End of story. Close your bible and go out and earn your way into heaven. And this idea seems to be affirmed in the following few verses:

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness" (2:14-15).

But the question arises: who really obeys the law? What kind of person, whether Jew or Gentile, actually lives a righteous life, blameless before God?

Paul says, whether Jew or Gentile, if you sin, you will be judged: "All who have sinned apart from the law (Gentiles) will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law (Jews) will be judged by the law" (2:12). Therefore, it means nothing to be a Jew before the law, "Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision" (2:25). "Then those who are physically uncircumcision but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law" (2:27).

Paul conveys a similar exhortation/warning to Christians as well: "What then are we to say? Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?" (6:1-2). "What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourself to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?" (6:15-16).

The genuineness of Jew and Gentile alike is determined by their obedience to God's law. Calling oneself a Jew or a Christian, at least in God's eyes, in itself means nothing if that person lives a sinful life. What kind of person, then, truly obeys God's law? Paul gives a hint to the answer at the end of chapter 2: "For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart -- it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God" (2:28-29).

The preceding passages seem to affirm that people are by nature free to choose between right and wrong, and their choices, apart from anything, are what determine their eternal destiny. Again, if I were to take the preceding passages out of context, I could miss the greater depth and implications of Paul's teaching. Because just when you think it is all so simple and clear, Paul turns around and reminds his listeners (and us) that NO ONE can satisfactorily obey God's law in order to be justified by it: "All, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God" (3:9-11).

Now the questions arise: how is it possible for people under the power of sin to obey God's law? If certain Gentiles and Jews in the past have lived righteous lives according to the law, what made them exceptions to the rule? What kind of person lives a righteous life, blameless before God? If men aren't justified by the law, how does God justify them?

The answer to all these questions: through faith; faith; a person living by faith; declaring them righteous because of their faith

Faith.

"The righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith" (3:21-2). "God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (2:30-31).

Likewise, Abraham's "'faith was reckoned to (him) as righteousness.' How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised" (4:9-12).

Faith is the key for both Jew and Christian and for non-Jew and non-Christian, to be declared righteous. God has no favorites and is utterly impartial: all have sinned, and only those having faith, whoever they may be, are justified in His sight.

Paul goes on to point out that if God's blessing were dependent upon the performance of those who have knowledge of God's law, then faith would be meaningless. "For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. If it is the adherents of the law ("the hearers of the law" 2:13) who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void" (4:13-14).

So how are those who believe in God's promises able to obey the law? For God has said, only those who are doers of the law and not hearers only shall be justified in my sight (2:13, Matt. 7:21). The answer: those having faith receive the empowerment to obey from God's Spirit: "So that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (8:4).

Anyone in the past who believed the God of the Jews, even if they were Gentiles, were imbued with God's Spirit and given the power to obey the law. As Paul says, "but now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed ... through faith in Jesus Christ" (3:21,22). Now the righteousness of God is found through Jesus Christ, for all men, Jew and Gentile alike.

One last point.

Life in Christ requires obedience. If all were merely about justification, then God would not require obedience. But Life in Christ not only involves justification, but 'much more'. "If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ" (5:17).

Contrary to the views of many Christians (formerly myself included), Romans 7 is not meant by Paul to be autobiographical. "As to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless" (Phillippians 3:6). The person represented in Romans 7 is wrestling with the law, though dominated by the sin in his members. This could not be Paul, and neither is it meant by Paul to represent Christian existence, "I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God -- what is good and acceptable and perfect" (12:1-2).

Romans 7 is really a description of what Paul alluded to earlier, when he spoke of certain non-believers who nevertheless recognize the validity of God's law: "They (Gentiles) show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them" (2:15). Compare to Chapter 7: "I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it" (7:15-18). Clearly, Paul is not here speaking of a Christian, since he has already declared that those who are baptized into Christ are "no longer ... enslaved to sin" (6:6).

(Continued...)

Originally posted by epiphinehas
No.

This is an extremely difficult problem to resolve. I've been studying Romans 1-9 lately, in great depth, regarding God's law vs. God's grace; original sin vs. individual responsibility. I'll do my best to convey to you what little understanding I've gleaned from my efforts.

How are we both born into sin, and also held personally accountable f ...[text shortened]... .

(Continued...)

OH- mein Gott, der ist eine Menge Stierscheiße für einen Psuedogott wie Paul.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
...The great danger, the great stumbling block of many Jews and Christians, is in believing that salvation is attained by works alone. But God declares people righteous because of faith, not works. Faith upholds the law, but seeking to fulfill the law without faith in Jesus Christ is doomed to failure. One must strive to fulfill the law on the basis of ...[text shortened]... rather than by "patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality."

Alle, die geschrieben wurden, nachdem Christ lang tot war und Paul trafen nie wirklich den Mann.Es ist in der direkten Opposition zu, welchem Christ auf dem Thema und sagte, wenn Sie wirklich versuchten zu verstehen, wünschen Sie Christ sagte, Ihnen würde veranschlagen ihn anstelle von diesem usurper Paul.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Alle, die geschrieben wurden, nachdem Christ lang tot war und Paul trafen nie wirklich den Mann.Es ist in der direkten Opposition zu, welchem Christ auf dem Thema und sagte, wenn Sie wirklich versuchten zu verstehen, wünschen Sie Christ sagte, Ihnen würde veranschlagen ihn anstelle von diesem usurper Paul.

Leute beschließen, Paul zu mißverstehen, weil die Gebote von Christ schwierig zu tun sind.