26 Aug 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt is an unfortunate state of affairs, yes. But you are assuming that it is God's fault that people sin, which is false. God originally created human beings for intimate fellowship with Himself. It was by willfully disobeying God's commandments that our ancestors were cut off from that relationship (and thus cursing all future generations). If God weren't perfectly just, then he would not require us to be judged for our sins, but He is, and He does. And the fact is, according to the Law, God is not required to provide amnesty. Yet, he does. In the Person of Jesus Christ, by His shed blood on the cross; the Lamb of God died in place of any sinner who chooses to believe in Him. So God proves Himself not only to be perfectly just, but also blessedly merciful; out of His abounding love for mankind He took the sins of the world upon Himself, granting undeserved kindness to anyone who believes in His Son, Jesus Christ.
No all-loving god would coerce people into worshipping him by giving these people prudential reasons to avoid his vengeance. If you don't understand that, there's something wrong with your judgment. There's also no reasons to think there is something necessary about coercion. There seems nothing necessary about these prudential reasons in particular: i ...[text shortened]... is all just very ugly idolatry on your part. I don't know what else to say about it.
Wouldn't it be wise to accept forgiveness of an impossible to pay back debt? Prudential even? God is worthy of praise and worship as He is in Himself, as God and Creator of all things, but even more so because of His merciful loving-kindness toward sinners like you and I. Try not to be thankful to the lifeguard who saves you from drowning...
27 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasI didn't say in my post that it's god's fault that people sin. I said your god coerces people into worshipping him through threat of punishment. What don't you understand about that? Theists on this forum often describe his redeeming offer as a "free gift", but of course it's not compatible with a reasonable concept of 'gift' that one be subjected to eternal torment for refusing it. Anyway, what reasons do you have to think he is just in sentencing one who doesn't accept him to eternal torment? And that's a nice touch how he, as you indicate, visits on us threat of punishment for sins of past generations, too. That makes a lot of sense.
It is an unfortunate state of affairs, yes. But you are assuming that it is God's fault that people sin, which is false. God originally created human beings for intimate fellowship with Himself. It was by willfully disobeying God's commandments that our ancestors were cut off from that relationship (and thus cursing all future generations). If ke you and I. Try not to be thankful to the lifeguard who saves you from drowning...
And get better analogies. Your god's attributes are so shockingly great that ultimately (if not always proximately), everything must be of his design -- including putatively our inability to meet the demands of the law as well as the putatively deserved punishment for failing to meet the demands of the law. So basically he throws a bunch of people in the pool (just as we are all thrown into existence); knowing full well they can't swim on their own (just as we cannot meet his law perfectly); and then offers his hand as way for them to make effort out of the pool (hooray for Jesus!). Oh, and there's also some crazy contraption he has created at the bottom of the pool, so somehow if a person refuses his hand for whatever reason and goes down, then they don't just die and cease to exist; that wouldn't be good enough for him; instead, they continue to live but in a horrifically tortured state. Yeah, the analogies get pretty silly, but then again your beliefs are terribly silly.
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt makes so much sense though when that's all you've known.
I didn't say in my post that it's god's fault that people sin. I said your god coerces people into worshipping him through threat of punishment. What don't you understand about that? Theists on this forum often describe his redeeming offer as a "free gift", but of course it's not compatible with a reasonable concept of 'gift' that one be subjected to e ...[text shortened]... the analogies get pretty silly, but then again your beliefs are terribly silly.
Quite simply if EV's god is real, then every damned soul is in hell first and foremost because EV's god wanted them there.
27 Aug 07
3 edits
Originally posted by telerionQuite simply if EV's god is real, then every damned soul is in hell first and foremost because EV's god wanted them there.
It makes so much sense though when that's all you've known.
Quite simply if EV's god is real, then every damned soul is in hell first and foremost because EV's god wanted them there.
Yeah, I'm not sure how it could be otherwise, if He exercises His purported attributes.
(EV?)
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by telerionIt makes so much sense though when that's all you've known.
It makes so much sense though when that's all you've known.
Quite simply if EV's god is real, then every damned soul is in hell first and foremost because EV's god wanted them there.
Any system that is (or can be made to seem) internally consistent does. But internal consistency, though a necessary condition, is not a sufficient condition for validating a system.
It can be a difficult discipline (especially because we seem sometimes to be incredibly capable of self-deception) to step outside of every such system, in order to evaluate the maps against the territory, rather than the other way ‘round. To simply step from one such system to another is not enough.
Once one does that, one ought to be at least able to articulate reasons why this map seems better than others. But one ought not to try to rearrange the territory (reality as we can perceive and experience it; the reality of which we are) in order to accommodate the maps...
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by telerionBy the way, this is a good point. I've often thought they just don't understand the entailments of the attributes they ascribe to god. This is also what I was alluding to when I said everything is ultimately of his design, even if we don't want to say proximately of his design. So we can just skip the bad analogies and go right to the source: the will of such a god.
Quite simply if EV's god is real, then every damned soul is in hell first and foremost because EV's god wanted them there.
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by jaywillThe Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. - The Gay Science
I don't think that many here understand that sin is more than just "having done a bad thing" before GOD.
Sin is an infestation of something alien. Sin is discribed like a parasite attached to man. It is a being infesting and attached to man as a parasite. Sin is Satan himself joined to man.
Out from that union of this evil being with man comes out si ...[text shortened]... cosmic tapeworm that has attached himself to mankind.
Romans 7 really elaborates on this.
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by VladimirFirst, not all Christians have that “resolution”.
The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad. - The Gay Science
Second, an ugly map does not an ugly territory make.
Forcing the territory to conform to the contours of such a map is (to the extent that such measures succeed), however, another matter . . .
27 Aug 07
2 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloThe threat of punishment is not it. You are missing the point. We are created for eternal communion with God, and anything less is 'hell'. Hell is spending eternity somewhere you don't belong, where you were never meant to be -- indeed, where God does not want you to be. And where is that? Shut out from the presence of God, in 'outer darkness'.
I didn't say in my post that it's god's fault that people sin. I said your god coerces people into worshipping him through threat of punishment. What don't you understand about that? Theists on this forum often describe his redeeming offer as a "free gift", but of course it's not compatible with a reasonable concept of 'gift' that one be subjected to e the analogies get pretty silly, but then again your beliefs are terribly silly.
The only place in the universe where God purposefully chooses not to directly intervene is the human will. The human will is free. For his short stint on earth a man can willfully sin and choose to reject Christ (neither of which are according to God's will). But when God judges all men, He only accepts those who have surrendered their will to His. There is no room in His eternal kingdom for a rebel. Those who, by their own free will, chose to 'have things their way' are sent to the only place where God's will is absent: and that is hell.
If you'd like to blame God for anything, perhaps you should blame him for giving you free will? Seriously, though, try and prove that you are not the son or daughter of Adam and Eve, cursed by rebellion. Have you ever lied? Have you ever looked lustfully upon someone? Have you ever falsely accused anyone? Have you ever stolen anything? God judges men according to their deeds.
The bottom line is, we all need Jesus. We are all created in God's image, and God loves us. Our true and proper place is with Him in His joyful presence for eternity. God wants us there! But it's our choice whether we get their or not.
27 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasWhen I was a missionary, I used your exact argument so I really understand your position here. Please do not get offended by this when I tell you LJ really does get your argument, but you are not getting his. I exhort you to give his argument a fresh look.
The threat of punishment is not it. You are missing the point. We are created for eternal communion with God, and anything less is 'hell'. Hell is spending eternity somewhere you don't belong, where you were never meant to be -- indeed, where God does not want you to be. And where is that? Shut out from the presence of God, in 'outer darkness'.
T for eternity. God wants us there! But it's our choice whether we get their or not.
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou are not coerced into worshipping God through the threat of
I didn't say in my post that it's god's fault that people sin. I said your god coerces people into worshipping him through threat of punishment. What don't you understand about that? Theists on this forum often describe his redeeming offer as a "free gift", but of course it's not compatible with a reasonable concept of 'gift' that one be subjected to e ...[text shortened]... the analogies get pretty silly, but then again your beliefs are terribly silly.
punishment! He is worthy of worship, because of the reality of the
universe it is fitting we do worship God and no other. Your punishment
is because of the sin in your life, the fact that God has made a way to
save you from your sin and you remain unthankful speaks more
about you than it does God.
Kelly
27 Aug 07
Originally posted by telerionThere is no argument here. At least from my end.
When I was a missionary, I used your exact argument so I really understand your position here. Please do not get offended by this when I tell you LJ really does get your argument, but you are not getting his. I exhort you to give his argument a fresh look.
LJ believes that the word of God is silly, and that's his prerogative. I don't hold that against him (or you). I cannot be offended by either one of you, so please feel free to say whatever. I may not completely understand God's ways, nor understand his word properly in every way, but I certainly try to at least get right what I know to be true about God's will. If you or LJ have a contention with God's word, I can do no better than attempt to clearly portray God's word to you in the hope that your struggle will not be in vain.
LJ's post reconsidered, I must reiterate: it is a basic misunderstanding of the relationship between God and fallen mankind to say that God forces people to worship Him. He never has and He never will. That you choose to see it that way, God as a Saddam-type character, is proof that you do not know what you are talking about.
Of course, there is a prudential element involved in either accepting or rejecting Him, but first it comes down to faith. If you do not believe that God exists and that He rewards those who seek Him, then you're certainly not going to take God's word seriously enough to benefit from it anyway. That is, you're not going to seek a true understanding of it; you'll remain content with your own superficial rendering.
God's plan for salvation is 'free' in that it is undeserved, but it isn't true to say that it is 'free' in the sense that nothing is required from us. Much is required. Particularly (in addition to faith), repentance and self-sacrifice. Whether it is unreasonable to you or not, this is what God requires for salvation. Lack of faith will prevent you from choosing the most prudential course.
The truth is, God is worthy of worship as He is. Those who see Him, through faith, can't help but worship Him, because He is glorious, beautiful, righteous, eternal, infinite and holy. God doesn't need to coerce anyone to worship Him; in His presence worship comes naturally to us, after all it is what we were originally created for. God's plan of salvation is first and foremost a means to justify ungodly sinners, not a means of coercion. When Christ brings a person back into harmony with God, worship comes naturally.
27 Aug 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasThere's nothing "free" about the choice your God puts before us -- it is coercive. He simply created a forced-choice scenario whereby one either accepts him or is subjected to eternal torment. I point a flame thrower toward you and command you to love me at pain of my setting you on fire if you refuse. What's wrong with that? Love is a great thing, and surely I'm lovable and surely you can flip your love on like switch. And if you just do exactly what I say to avoid my decimating all your interests and peace of mind; to avoid my crushing all your prospects of living characteristically free from pain and suffering; if you just do as I say then it will surely lead to a great and beautiful communion that will enhance your life. I'm just being lovey-dovey here.
The threat of punishment is not it. You are missing the point. We are created for eternal communion with God, and anything less is 'hell'. Hell is spending eternity somewhere you don't belong, where you were never meant to be -- indeed, where God does not want you to be. And where is that? Shut out from the presence of God, in 'outer darkness'.
T for eternity. God wants us there! But it's our choice whether we get their or not.
Oh, but I get it: the fact that God can always successfully impose His will on me gives me prudential reasons to submit. It's amazing how thoroughly your ideas pervert the concepts of freedom and love.