Hadith

Originally posted by Nemesio
Can you try to explain why the Sunnis and Shi'ites don't agree on the contents of the Hadith?
Is there an 'original' Hadith? Copies from the 8th century?

I know how Judeo-Christian scholars compile the Bible, but not how Moslem scholars compile their holy
books. Can you talk about this some?

Nemesio

I will try to explain as much as I can:

Part of the answer I already explained in my first post. but I will try to make it clear here.

First of all Muslims has two sources, Quran which is the word of Allah, that was inspired to the Prophet Muhammed from Allah. We believe it is direct words of Allah, and the prophet was just a messanger for the word. Quran was written and fully memorized at the time of the prophet. Before the prophet death, there was a complete written copy besides the memorized version. After the the prophet death, the written copy was collected in one book and then almost 30 years after that 6 copies was made from that one and compared to it and the memorized version. I think one of these 6 copies still existing today in Turkey. So all copies of the written copies are copied from that original one. But I have to point our that main method to transfere Quran is by memorizing it. In each generation from the time of the prophet untill today there were people who memorize the whole book, and transfere it to new members of the next generation, and there is a record of the main memorizers in each generation science the time of the prophet untill today. So in each generation the memorized version is compared to the written one (Called Mushaf = book in english). This gurantee that word is 100% preserved. For this reason all Muslims whatever their sects believe in the same Quran with no single difference in a single letter (Some small sects from Shei'ite that you can't call Muslims claims of some additive parts, but they accept the Quran that all Muslims accept with no difference, they just add about 20 verses or something). That is about Quran.

For Hadith it is different. Hadith is not the direct words of GOD. It is the teachings of the prophet, and his life. You can compare it to the four gospeles. It is narrated by his followers and students, who heard it directly from him. So it was not completely written (some follower did write some of it, but not every one).

After the death of the prophet, his followers (they were hundreds or thousands) , starte to teach other Muslims what they heard directly from the porphet. And so this happen for may be 3 or 4 generation in Max, when some Muslim scolar started to collect the Hadith. At that time there was many Muslims, and there was many Hadith's some of them are realy the word of the prophet, and some of them are not. What happened is that Scolars at that times used the narration Chain to identify the true Hadith from the false one.

To make it clear , lets say that one of the companions (X) (followers) heard the prophet say Hadith (H). This companion told Hadith H to someone in the next generation named (Y), and so (Y) told the same hadith to (Z), and al Bukhari (one of the most important scholars who collected hadith), heard it from Z.

When Y told the Hadith he told Z that he heard him from X, and so when Z told al Bukhari, he told him that he heard it from Y who heard him from X who heard him from the prophet.

So no al Bukhari have the Picture as followes, Z told him that Y told him that X told him that the prophet said H.

X should be one of the prophet's compinions who directly heard from the prophet, if it is not then the Hadith is rejected (unliss there is another narration chain that support it). If it is one of the prophet's companions the remaining parts of the chain is checked.

Y should have lived in a time where X has lived , and so Y and Z, which means that if X died before Y is born for example , then the chain is not complete and the Hadith is rejected.

If Y or Z are known that they can lie, or they have something that make a doubt in their narration, the hadith is rejected.

If Y is not knon at all , the hadith is rejected.

This system requires information about X, Y, and Z, which is documented in the same period in special books.

What I gave you here is a simplified model of who hadith was selected. Al Bukhari put a very restrected criteria that he only accepted around 3000 Hadith in his book from a total of 100000 Hadith he collected (some of them are accepted by other scholars).

Al Bukhari, Muslim (it is a name of a scholar) , and others , documented Hadith in books as they heard it from different source, and verify it through the narration chain. These books are the main source of Hadith for Muslims.


I hope this answers you question about the original Hadith.

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For the first Question about Sunnis and Shi'ite, I don't like to talk about it because it will force me to give a biased point of view , which I don't want to do. But I will give you the picture as I see it:

The origin of Shi'ites is political in nature, it was a conflect regarding who should follow the prophet in the leadership of Muslims. Shi'ite think that the family of the prophet is the only one that could lead the Muslim nation after the prophet, and they put their faith on Ali, the cousin of the prophet , and the husband of his daughter Fatema, and the father of his grand childresn Al Hassan & Al Hussin. But there is nothing in Quran, or Hadith (at least what the Majority of Muslims believe) , to support that claim.

What heppened after the prophet that 3 of the prophet students followed him , and Ali was the fourth. And during this period Ali himself was a consultance for the 3. When Ali became the leaders that was the real start for Shi'ita , the start to show their ideas' which Ali himself refused and fight them for it, because he considered it a diviation from the Islam. But Ali was killed, and the Shi'ite took his death to support thier claim and they started to work.

But they always had a problem, there is no source for their faith. So they started to add Hadith (claim it is hadith), which was not accepted according to the above critira (if you want you can try it yourself). What they added was mainly to support their basic believes about the rights of the prophet's family in leadership. They couldn't do that with Quran, becaue no Muslim will accept it from them. But hadith was not yet collected, and so there were many Hadith that were not accepted by any Muslim except for Shi'itie.

Also because they rejected the leadership of the first 3 companions they rejected them, and any hadith narrated by them, or any companion that supported them. That results in refusing a lot of hadith accepted by Other Muslims.

But because those three, were the closest companions of the prophet, (one of them Abu Bakr was the first to follow the prophet, and compined him in his trip from Mecca to Madena when the infedals wanted to kill him, and he was mentioned in Quran), the idea of Shi'ite is not accepted.

I know my English is not clear, but if you knew Arabic I would have been very happy 🙂


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This thread reminded me of this:

Thread 52346

It was a pity you weren't here at the time ahosyney. Care to comment on that?

Originally posted by ahosyney
Hadith is the second source of Islamic faith.

I have had a few Muslim friends but not discussed their faith with them very much. However they told me that Islam gives complete instructions on how to live your life. Why do you think the Qu'ran omitted to explain how to interpret or verify the Hadith so as to avoid the split between Sunni and Shi'ite? (OR avoid whatever else caused that split).

One of my biggest criticisms of Christianity is the vast variety of interpretations and yet many Christians say "pray and God will help you understand" and yet when they pray each comes up with a different answer.

Originally posted by Palynka
This thread reminded me of this:

Thread 52346

It was a pity you weren't here at the time ahosyney. Care to comment on that?

I don't usually go to the debates forums, so I didn't see it. I don't mind to comment on that thread, but it will take me away from the purpose of this thread. Do you mind to discuss it later, in another thread may be? or I can get back to you in this thread later on.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I don't usually go to the debates forums, so I didn't see it. I don't mind to comment on that thread, but it will take me away from the purpose of this thread. Do you mind to discuss it later, in another thread may be? or I can get back to you in this thread later on.

Whenever you can. On one hand, posting on that thread will most likely lead to more xenophobic posts by some of the posters in that forum but on the other hand it will be easier for me to find your remarks, if that topic comes again in the future. Just choose whatever you feel most comfortable with.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have had a few Muslim friends but not discussed their faith with them very much. However they told me that Islam gives complete instructions on how to live your life. Why do you think the Qu'ran omitted to explain how to interpret or verify the Hadith so as to avoid the split between Sunni and Shi'ite? (OR avoid whatever else caused that split).

One ...[text shortened]... God will help you understand" and yet when they pray each comes up with a different answer.

Ok, I hope you will get what I want to say:

1- Quran is very clear that we should follow the teaching of the prophet:

(Nobel-Translation)(Muhammad)(o 33 o)(33. O you who believe! Obey Allâh, and obey the Messenger - and render not vain your deeds.)

(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Anfal)(o 20 o)(20. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and His Messenger, and turn not away from him -i.e. Messenger Muhammad - while you are hearing.)

(Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 59 o)(59. O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger -Muhammad -, and those of you -Muslims- who are in authority. -And- if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger --, if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. )

So the verses talks about obediance without any interpretation. So , I understand it, (and so all Sunni if you like to call it this way) takes the literal meaning without any interpretation.

look at this verse:
Nobel-Translation)(Aal-Imran)(o 7 o)(7. It is He Who has sent down to you -Muhammad - the Book -this Qur'ân-. In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book -and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm -commandments, etc.-, Al-Farâ'id -obligatory duties- and Al-Hudud -legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.--; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation -from the truth- they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah -polytheism and trials, etc.-, and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it -clear and unclear Verses- are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. -Tafsir At-Tabarî-.)

I think this verse is clear (as it says). The verses should be taken as they are without interpretation.

---------------------

Talking about the spilit, who said that there shouldn't be a spilit. It is the nature of humans that they will be different. But Quran tell us what should we do to end any split (The problem today is that no one followes Quran):

(Nobel-Translation)(Al-Hujurat)(o 9 o)(9. And if two parties or groups among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both, but if one of them rebels against the other, then fight you -all- against the one that which rebels till it complies with the Command of Allâh; then if it complies, then make reconciliation between them justly, and be equitable. Verily! Allâh loves those who are equitable.)

So spilit could happen, but the idea is how to resolve it. Me myself don't belive that the problem between Sunna and Shia is a conflect between two sects in the same religion, but rather a conflect between two different religions. Because the differences between them makes it so.

Originally posted by EinsteinMind
Very interesting. Can you tell me how accurate they are according to the original translations? Like percentage form?

Aside from that, very good writings. They seem very poetic.

For me the translation is good. When I read it gives me almost the same meaning in Arabic. You can say close to 75%.

What I pointed here is Just a sample, the books of Hadith includes thouthands of Hadith.

Another important point is that Hadith is not ordered in Hadith books according to their timing. They are not written in a story form.

There are other books that deals with the biography of the prophet, and they aim to order different events, but they don't discuss the timing of each hadith.

Originally posted by Palynka
Whenever you can. On one hand, posting on that thread will most likely lead to more xenophobic posts by some of the posters in that forum but on the other hand it will be easier for me to find your remarks, if that topic comes again in the future. Just choose whatever you feel most comfortable with.

When I comment on that I will PM you. Is that ok for you?

Originally posted by Nemesio
I can explain the methodological principles which Scripture scholars use to edit the Bible. I can
offer explanations for why certain books are and are not included in the Bible. For mainstream
Christian sects, I can explain their theological frameworks and upon what Scriptural or traditional
justifications they rest. Did you have a question?

I am p ...[text shortened]... ) and how it
came to be written.

What's the earliest source for the Hadith?

Nemesio

I think this Book may help you

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html

Originally posted by ahosyney
When I comment on that I will PM you. Is that ok for you?

Yes, no problem. Thanks.

Here I will give some samples from another book of Hadith ,Sahih Muslim, in this book the muslim Scholar Muslim documented around 4000 hadith from among 300000 hadith he collected. It is important to note that there are many Hadith shared between different Hadith books. And some are found in only one or two books (or more).

All of these samples are taken from the book of The Book Pertaining to Piety and Softening of Hearts (Kitab Al-Zuhd wa Al-Raqa'iq)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/042.smt.html


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Book 042, Number 7061:
Mutarrif reported on the authority of his father: I came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as he was reciting:" Abundance diverts you" (cii. 1). He said: The son of Adam claims: My wealth, my wealth. And he (the Holy Prophet) said: O son of Adam. is there anything as your belonging except that which you consumed, which you utilised, or which you wore and then it was worn out or you gave as charity and sent it forward?
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Book 042, Number 7064:
Anas b. Malik reported Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: Three things follow the bier of a dead man. two of them come back and one is left with him: the members of his family. wealth and his-good deeds. The members of his family and wealth come back and the deeds alone are left with him.
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Book 042, Number 7068:
Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When one of you looks at one who stands at a higher level than you in regard to wealth and physical structure he should also see one who stands at a lower level than you in regard to these things (in which he stands) at a hi-her level (as compared to him).
-----------------------------
Book 042, Number 7083:
'A'isha reported: Never had the family of Muhammad (may peace be upon him) eaten to the fill since their, arrival in Medina with the bread of wheat for three successive nights until his (Holy Prophet's) death.
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Book 042, Number 7091:
'A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) died (in such a state) that there had been nothing in my wooden tub which a living being could afford to eat but a handful of barley therein. I had been eating out of that for a fairly long duration when I thought of measuring it and it was almost finished.
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Book 042, Number 7108:
Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: One who looks after the orphan whether he is his relative or not, I and he would be together in Paradise like this, and Malik (explained it) with the gesture by drawing his index finger and middle finger close together.
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Book 042, Number 7115:
Ibn Abbas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If anyone wants to have his deeds widely publicised, Allah will publicise (his humiliation). And if anyone makes a hypocritical display (of his deeds) Allah will make a display of him.
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Book 042, Number 7124:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: All the people of my Ummah would get pardon for their sins except those who publicise them. And (it means) that a servant should do a deed during the night and tell the people in the morning that he has done so and so, whereas Allah has concealed it. And he does a deed during the day and when it is night he tells the people, whereas Allah has concealed it. Zuhair has used the word hijar for publicising.


Note:

Sahih Muslim includes almost 4000 hadith , but they are repeated in different chapters because sometimes a single hadith covers different aspects. For this reason you will find the numbering reaches 7xxx.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Hadith is the second source of Islamic faith. Hadith is simply what the prophet Mohammed said, did, or accepted from his followers during his life. From Hadith we Muslims get the details of the prophet lifes, worship , law and more. The Hadith is not a book. It is a single event or talk from the prophet attached with a narration chain that gives the name of ...[text shortened]...
Thank you all for reading this thread.

Was the Prophet, peace be upon him, infallible? If not, might the Hadith contain erroneous recommendations?

Very interesting. You know I am a Wiki man and this a brief history about the Hadith in Wiki.

"Traditions regarding the life of the Prophet Mohammad and the early history of Islam were passed down orally for more than a 100 years after the death of Muhammad in 632.

Muslim historians say that it was the caliph Uthman (the 3rd caliph, or successor of Muhammad, who had formerly been Muhammad's secretary), who first urged Muslims both to write down the Quran in a fixed form, and to write down the hadith. Uthman's labors were cut short by his assassination, at the hands of aggrieved soldiers, in 656.

The Muslim community (ummah) then fell into a prolonged civil war, termed the Fitna by Muslim historians. AFter the 4rth caliph, Ali ibn Abi Talib, was assassinated, control of the Islamic empire was seized by the Umayyad dynasty in 661. Ummayad rule was interrupted by a second civil war (the second Fitna), re-established, then ended in 758, when the Abbasid dynasty siezed the caliphate, to hold it, at least in name, until 1258.

Muslim historians say that hadith collection and evalution continued during the first Fitna and the Umayyad period. However, much of this activity was presumably oral transmission from the early Muslims to later collectors, or from teachers or students. If any of these early scholars committed any of these collections to writing, they have not survived. The historians and hadith collections we possess today were written down at the start of the Abbasid period, more than 100 years after the death of Mohammad.

The scholars of the Abbasid period were faced with a huge corpus of miscellaneous traditions, some of them flatly contradicting each other. Many of these traditions supported differing views on a variety of contraversial matters. Scholars had to decide which hadith were to be trusted as authentic narrations and which had been invented for various political or theological reasons. For this purpose, they used a number of techniques which Muslims now call the science of the hadith."

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Was the Prophet, peace be upon him, infallible? If not, might the Hadith contain erroneous recommendations?

I second this question. You know many Christians get accused of worshiping the Bible as "perfect", thus the charge of idolatry is applied to them for worshiping it above their God. Are their such charges concerning Islam and the Quran?

Ahosyney has been gracious in past debate with me about Hadith, though I am not a Muslim, do not have his knowledge, and tend to come at Islam from a decidedly Sufi perspective. As before, for purposes of discussion, I will adopt a position as if I were a Muslim who agreed with the (modernist?) sources that I will argue from.

I hope that, once again, Ahosyney will not mind--I'm not even sure that he will disagree with any of this.

My propositions will be that:

(1) There is no guarantee that there are not inauthentic Ahadith, even in such collections as Bukhari.

(2) Hadith cannot be used to abrogate any passage from the Qur’an.

(3) Every Hadith must be interrogated by the reader, who must decide for him/herself if any given Hadith is acceptable—or if it actually makes whatever point the scholars say it does.

My argument is not that all use of Hadith should be rejected, nor is it a critique of Islam. In my reading I have found a range of beliefs about Hadith among Muslim authors—from uncritical acceptance of those found in the main collections, to outright Hadith rejection (e.g., Kassim Ahmad), to the kind of middle-ground critical approach I am suggesting here. After all, one of the principles of Islam is that there is no authority that stands between the individual and God, so that both the right and the responsibility for interpretation rest solely with the individual.

The last time, I used the example of stoning for adultery. That presentation, for background, can be found here: http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=55297&page=12. That discussion ended with the glad tidings of the birth of Ahosyney’s second child. In it, I cited internet sources for detailed challenges to the authenticity of Hadith bearing on that question.

This time, I will offer several examples over the following posts.

NOTE: The argument here is not about the specific issues (e.g., adultery, stoning, trusting women)—these are only cases used to bear on the Hadith question.

___________________________________

Here is also an essay by Muhammed Asadi on the Hadith question:

http://rationalreality.50webs.com/Hadith.htm.

______________________________________

From: http://www.rim.org/muslim/Hadith.htm —

NOTE: This is from a Christian site, and so perhaps its bias is understandable. For anyone who wants to read the whole essay, I will note that I have Kassim Ahmad’s Hadith: A Re-Evaluation.

Hadith Authenticity: a Survey of Perspectives

Appendix A

Canons for the Evaluation of Ahadith1

A Hadith consists of two parts: its text, called matn, and its chain of narrators, called isnad. Comprehensive and strict criteria were separately developed for the evaluation of matn and isnad. The former is regarded as the internal test of Ahadith, and the latter is considered the external test. A Hadith was accepted as authentic and recorded into text only when it met both of these criteria independently.

Criteria for the Evaluation of Isnad

The unblemished and undisputed character of the narrator, called rawi, was the most important consideration for the acceptance of a Hadith. As stated earlier, a new branch of 'ilm al-Hadith known as asma' ar-rijal was developed to evaluate the credibility of narrators. The following are a few of the criteria utilized for this purpose:

1. The name, nickname, title, parentage and occupation of the narrator should be known.
2. The original narrator should have stated that he heard the Hadith directly from the Prophet.
3. If a narrator referred his Hadith to another narrator, the two should have lived in the same period and have had the possibility of meeting each other.
4. At the time of hearing and transmitting the Hadith, the narrator should have been physically and mentally capable of understanding and remembering it.
5. The narrator should have been known as a pious and virtuous person.
6. The narrator should not have been accused of having lied, given false evidence or committed a crime.
7. The narrator should not have spoken against other reliable people.
8. The narrator's religious beliefs and practices should have been known to be correct.
9. The narrator should not have carried out and practiced peculiar religious beliefs of his own.

Criteria for the Evaluation of Matn

1. The text should have been stated in plain and simple language.
2. A text in non-Arabic or couched in indecent language was rejected.
3. A text prescribing heavy punishment for minor sins or exceptionally large reward for small virtues was rejected.
4. A text which referred to actions that should have been commonly known and practiced by others but were not known and practiced was rejected.
5. A text contrary to the basic teachings of the Qur'an was rejected.
6. A text contrary to other Ahadith was rejected.
7. A text contrary to basic reason, logic and the known principles of human society was rejected.
8. A text inconsistent with historical facts was rejected.
9. Extreme care was taken to ensure the text was the original narration of the Prophet and not the sense of what the narrator heard. The meaning of the Hadith was accepted only when the narrator was well known for his piety and integrity of character.
10. A text derogatory to the Prophet, members of his family or his companions was rejected.
11. A text by an obscure narrator which was not known during the age of sahabah [the Prophet's companions] or the tabi'een [those who inherited the knowledge of the sahabah] was rejected.

Along with these generally accepted criteria, each scholar then developed and practiced his own set of specific criteria to further ensure the authenticity of each Hadith. For instance, Imam al-Bukhari would not accept a Hadith unless it clearly stated that narrator A had heard it from narrator B. He would not accept the general statement that A narrated through B. On this basis he did not accept a single Hadith narrated through 'Uthman, even though Hasan al-Basri always stayed very close to 'Ali. Additionally, it is stated that Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal practiced each Hadith before recording it in his Musnad [book or collection of Hadith].

___________________________________

1 Kazi, 12-14. All information in this appendix has been taken from Kazi's work and shows the orthodox Muslim view of the criteria used to 'authenticate' Hadith. However, as I argue in this paper, this is a system of guidelines which numerous scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike, have clearly shown to be seriously inadequate - if not an complete farce, as these standards are broken on numerous occasions in even the 'best' collections of Hadith. This of course makes the authenticity of the Hadith dubious at best - a situation with serious ramifications for the Islamic sharia, and the religion of Islam as a whole.

The Kazi referred to is: Mazhar U. Kazi, A Treasury of Ahadith (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: Abul-Qasim Publishing House, 1992)
____________________________________________

Abu Yusuf [d. 183] records in al-Radd ‘ala Siyar al-Awza‘i: "The Prophet said: 'The Hadith about me will spread. So what comes to you about me and is in agreement with the Qur’an is from me and what comes to you about me and is in conflict with the Qur’an is not from me.'"


Shafi‘i in his al-Risalah records the following Hadith: "The Prophet said: 'After my death you will split up on the basis of different opinions. When something reaches you which is attributed to me, compare it with the Qur’an; when it corresponds with the Book, it is from me; that which is at variance with it is not from me.'"

Abu Yusuf [d. 183] accepted this Hadith as authentic but Shafi‘i [d. 204] rejected it, calling it weak.

“Do not accept anything that you yourself cannot ascertain. You are given the hearing, the sight and the mind in order to examine and verify.” (Qur’an 17:36, Rashad Khalifa’s translation)

“And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.” (17:36, M.H. Shakir translation)

“(O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked.” (17:36, Pickthall’s translation)

“And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of those shall be questioned.” (17:36, Yusuf Ali’s translation).