13 Jul '07 21:45>1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdI think you don't understand exactly how the Hadith is transfered. I understanded this from you answer about the Prayer.
[b]It doesn't seem that there is something you are missing here. So to start, can you tell me what a good Isnad means for you?
Basically, one in which the chain is possible (person X was really still alive when he spoke to person Y, for example; or that Z really could’ve heard the prophet say so and so); and that the chain consist of persons who are is using, or how one pours from it. The pitcher is for the water, not the other way around.[/b]
When I gave you the example of the prayer, it was intended, because Quran stress every where about the importance of the prayer, and that leaving prayer is very important thing. Although the details of the prayer is known from the Prophet's act.
So it is not that we heard someone say we should pray like that, but rather it is transfered Generations by Generation. It is a group of companions saw the prophet pray, and the prayed like him, and so the next generation who didn't see the prophet, saw his companions praying, and they did pray like them, and so on. So it is not the mater of Hearsay here.
So there are basic stuff that are well know with the same way, and no Muslim can question it.
So now lets talk about Isnad. And I will take the Hadith you asked me about before as an example ( I will translate it myself, and hope it will be good):
As I told you I found in three collections, and I will translate from the three:
1- Sunan Al Termizi, the Book of Supplications, The merit of Zekr (To Remember Allah): Hadith No. 3375:
Abo Kreb Told me that Zaid Ibn Habab said that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays siad that Abd Allah ibn Basr (Allah bless him) said that a man said to the prophet (peace be upon him): Oh messanger of Allah, the legislations of Islam became much for me , so tell me of something that I stick to. The prophet replayed, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
The part in bold is the Isnad and the part in Italic is the Hadith itself. Here we have 6 reporters in the Isnad:
1- Al Termizi himself (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abo Kreb
3- Zaid Ibn Habab
4- Moawea Ibn Saleh
5- Amr Ibn Kays
6- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
Abd Allah ibn Basr is one of the prophets companion. The last one of the Isnad chain should be one of the prophet companions, other wise it is called "Marfoo Hadith" which of a less degree of authintecity, and generally not accepted for laws and faith related issus. It might be accpted as general guidance if it has some morals. But this hadith is not of this type.
No as you can say reporter 6 heard from the prophet. and 5 heard from 4 and so on untill we reach reporter 1 who wrote the collection (Al Termizi in this case).
Lets assume that this hadith is not true. For this to be true then one of the 6 reporters must not be telling the truth. If any one of them is known to did transfere false hadith his hadith is rejected.
So if any of those 6 known to be a lier the hadith is rejected.
Also if reporter 4 couldn't have been heard from reporter 5 for example (for example the lived in two different places so they couldn't met), then the hadith is rejected.
If one of the 6 reported say in the Isnad that he didn't hear it directry from the person he named. ( For example if the Isnad say "I heard that 4 said .....). This is not accepted. The reporter should say that he heard it himself.
So to say that this is a good Isnad (Specially when we talk about al Bukhari and Muslim) we say that it is not a hearsay.
Most of the Hadith has several Isnads (Many reporters said it in different generations). But sometimes it has only one way. Like this hadith, in the Termizi.
2- Now lets look about the other 2 collections:
In Sunan Ibn Maga, The book of Manars, The merit of Zekr: Hadith No. 3793:
Abo Kreb Told me in accordance to Zaid Ibn Habab said that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays Al Kendy siad that Abd Allah ibn Basr said that an arabian man(Bedouin) said to prophet peace be upon him, the legislations in Islam became much for me , so tell me of one of them that I stick to. The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
As you can see it has the same Isnad, with a minor change in the text itself (I'm not sure of that, but could be accpted if it doesn't give a different meaning, I will check that).
1- Ibn Maga himself (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abo Kreb
3- Zaid Ibn Habab
4- Moawea Ibn Saleh
5- Amr Ibn Kays
6- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
So the same hadith is found in two collections with the same Isnad. So what you if you accepted one you will accept the other.
3- In the third collection: Musnad Ahmed: In this collection the hadith is found twice with two differnt Isnads:
a- No. 17245: The Hadith of "Abd Allah Ibn Basr Al Mazni"
Abd Allah Told Me, that My Father told me, according to Abd Al Rahman Ibn Mahdy that Moawea Ibn Saleh said that Amr Ibn Kays
Siad: I heard Abd Allah Ibn Basr say: Two Arabians (Bedouins) came to the prophet, one of them asked: Oh the messanger of Allah, who is the best person (This translation is not accurate but it is close)? The prophet replayed: The one with long age and good deed. And the other asked: the legislations in Islam became much for me , so order me with something to stick to?. The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
Here the Isnad is as follows:
1- Imam Ahmed (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abd Allah (Who is Abd Allah and his father is known in the book itself, I just translate as is)
3- His Father
4- Abd Al Rahman Ibn Mahdy
5- Moawea Ibn Saleh
6- Amr Ibn Kays
7- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
As you can see this Isnad share the first three reporters with the first one. And the text two about two questions not one.
b- Now the last one will be:
No. 17245: The Hadith of "Abd Allah Ibn Basr Al Mazni":
Abd Allah Told Me, that My Father told me, according to Ali Ibn Ayash according to Hassan Ibn Noah, said that Amr Ibn Kays
Siad that Abd Allah Ibn Basr said: Two Arabians (Bedouins) came to the prophet, one of them asked: Oh Mohammed, who is the best person (This translation is not accurate but it is close)? The prophet replayed: The one with long age and good deed. And the other asked: the legislations in Islam became much for us , so what is the thing that we sticl to and include everything?(The arabic version is not clear for me, I translated this question as much as I can) The prophet said, Keep you mouth moist by remembering Allah (Zekr)
So the new Isnad is:
1- Imam Ahmed (The collector of Hadith)
2- Abd Allah (Who is Abd Allah and his father is known in the book itself, I just translate as is)
3- His Father
4- Ali Ibn Ayash
5- Hassan Ibn Noah
6- Amr Ibn Kays
7- Abd Allah ibn Basr (Prophet companion)
So as you can see this one share the first two and the last two with the previous one.
Now we have three continous Isnads for this Hadith, for this hadith to be Hearsay or not true, only two names of the 3 Isnads could be the source. Either Amr Ibn Kays of the companion Abd Allah Ibn Basr. I will not of course Judge the two now to tell you.
But now imagin that we have two more Isnads for this Hadith. I think the list of names that could be involved in lying on the prophet will to cause this hearsay could be detected. As you can see I didn't check the names themselves yet or the history of each reporter.
Given this very long Example, could you tell me other source of hearsay in this Hadith.
I hope I was not long for you. I think this might be useful for any one search about the credibility of Islamic books.
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Again, my target from this all not to force you to accept a special scholar as an idole or mediator between you and Allah, it is just to make it more clear so when you judge a specific Hadith you know how the story really goes. But you have the right to review everything yourself.
Also human conscience and thinking is not enough in this case, and should not contradict with what Allah wants from you if it is proven to you that it is really what he wants. That what is all about , submission.
To make my idea clear, in Muslim countries (or it least where Islam is still followed), for a woman to uncover her hear, or the man to walk without decent clothes is againest the morals of Islam. (It is common that only the woman should cover herself in Islam, but actually also man should cover his body as well, but what he should cover is different) But in other non-Islamic countires it is not. So in what morals you will Judge these teachings. Will you say they violates your moral conscience as will.
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