1. Standard membersonship
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    08 Dec '14 20:143 edits
    Do you believe that the same ultimate punishment awaits "all liars" as well as idolaters and murderers?


    Handy Andy I started a new thread dedicated to this one question you had. For my part, I under estimated the significance of the question.

    Though I sought to get away from the subject of damnation after writing on it for a couple of weeks, I felt to return to your question for further discussion.

    Lying and the lake of fire - How are they related ? Here's the backround passage I think caused your question.

    "Outside are the dogs and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie. " (Rev. 22:15)

    More specifically Revelation 21:8

    English Standard Version
    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    New American Standard Bible
    "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

    King James Bible
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    08 Dec '14 20:351 edit
    One of the biggest forms of lying which will send a person to hell is lying to himself or herself that one has no sin. If you lie to others that you have no sin that is bad enough. But lying to yourself to the point that you believe your own lie is terrible. This will cause you to end up in hell.

    "If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)


    Though this word in First John chapter 1 is addressed to Christians, it is still very useful to seekers for the truth.

    Men can lie to themselves until they actually are self deceived. The person who does not think they are a sinner is not likely to see the need for salvation in Christ. And so rejecting the need to be saved from his sins he will perish in "the second death" of the lake of fire.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    08 Dec '14 20:46
    Handy Andy, our fallen nature considers lying not important. We may think it is an ordinary sin and not too important. But lying is very common. And the dulled conscience of sinners often thinks it is a little matter to lie.

    If lying takes hold of a man's being to the point that he lies to himself that he is not guilty of any sinning, he is in danger of being one of those Revelation 21:8 mentions -

    " ... and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8b)

    So it is a good place to start by going to Jesus Christ to ask for salvation from lying. And that especially of the self deceiving lie that before the holiness of God one is not full of sins.

    Confession of sins to God is also a washing of one's soul in truth.
    It is to agree with God - to call a spade a spade and to stop lying about one's self.
  4. Standard memberHandyAndy
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    08 Dec '14 20:58
    Originally posted by sonship
    One of the biggest forms of lying which will send a person to hell is lying to himself or herself that one has no sin. If you lie to others that you have no sin that is bad enough. But lying to yourself to the point that you believe your own lie is terrible. This will cause you to end up in hell.

    "If we say that we do not have sin, we are deceiving ours ...[text shortened]... ing the need to be saved from his sins he will perish in "the second death" of the lake of fire.
    Is it certain liars.. or all liars?
  5. Standard membersonship
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    08 Dec '14 21:191 edit
    Originally posted by HandyAndy
    Is it certain liars.. or all liars?
    By that time of the last judgment of the great white throne, lying will have either been eliminated out of human behavior or all the lying ones left will perish.

    It is the same with the other representative sins in that list. It is not an exhaustive list. It must be a representative list -

    "But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone, which is the second death."

    My burden here, if not your concern, is not to give you a statistical breakdown. It is to show how serious lying can be in that it can culminate in a person refusing to admit to the truth of her or his sins.

    If you intend to press for a statistical breakdown, I don't think that is as important as seeing that God will not tolerate liars and lying in eternity.

    When it says " unbelieving and abominable and murderers ... etc" a histogram or pie chart of how many in each group for statistical analysis is not the point. Our need to be forgiven and cleansed of every sin so that not one is not brought under the blood of Christ for salvation, is the point. And also the point of our being transformed dispositionally so that we are saved without and WITHIN from sins of all possible kinds is according to God's eternal purpose.
  6. Standard memberHandyAndy
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    09 Dec '14 03:571 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    By that time of the last judgment of the great white throne, lying will have either been eliminated out of human behavior or all the lying ones left will perish.

    It is the same with the other representative sins in that list. It is not an exhaustive list. It must be a representative list -

    [b]"But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable ...[text shortened]... saved without and WITHIN from sins of all possible kinds is according to God's eternal purpose.
    Who among us has never told a lie? The lake isn't big enough for all of us.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Dec '14 04:03
    Originally posted by HandyAndy
    Who among us has never told a lie? The lake isn't big enough for all of us.
    But those Christians who declare themselves to be 'once saved, always saved' don't have to worry about "sin", do they? Or have I misunderstood the Grampy Bobby/sonship 'Jesus' "work-on-the-cross"/salvation-cannot-be-undone' ideology?
  8. Standard membersonship
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    09 Dec '14 04:22
    Originally posted by FMF
    But those Christians who declare themselves to be 'once saved, always saved' don't have to worry about "sin", do they? Or have I misunderstood the Grampy Bobby/sonship 'Jesus' "work-on-the-cross"/salvation-cannot-be-undone' ideology?
    You have misunderstood the plan of salvation.

    Would you like to understand? Or would you prefer to remain in your misunderstanding?
  9. Standard membersonship
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    09 Dec '14 04:241 edit
    Originally posted by HandyAndy
    Who among us has never told a lie? The lake isn't big enough for all of us.
    None of us have never told a lie, with the exception perhaps of those who are unable to speak. And that is arguable also.
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Dec '14 04:28
    Originally posted by sonship
    You have misunderstood the plan of salvation.

    Would you like to understand? Or would you prefer to remain in your misunderstanding?
    I think I understand your OSAS ideology well enough thanks. You have talked about it in posts addressed directly to me. I will go and dig them out if you go ahead and contradict yourself now. Don't post anything further on this topic on my account.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    09 Dec '14 04:37
    Originally posted by FMF
    I think I understand your OSAS ideology well enough thanks. You have talked about it in posts addressed directly to me. I will go and dig them out if you go ahead and contradict yourself now. Don't post anything further on this topic on my account.
    There's no contradiction.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Dec '14 04:38
    Originally posted by sonship
    There's no contradiction.
    You have been perfectly clear. I understand your ideology.
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    09 Dec '14 04:393 edits
    Originally posted by HandyAndy
    The lake isn't big enough for all of us.
    It is estimated that there are now more people alive on earth than have ever lived; an extraordinary statistic if accurate, let's suppose it is and estimate that there are 6,000,000,000 currently on earth and 6,000,000,000 who have lived before, that's 12,000,000,000 people. A nice biblical 12.

    Let's suppose that at a generous guess 1,000,000,000 people manage to be found in Christ and therefore "saved". That leaves 11 billion people queuing up for the lake of eternal incineration, or as robbie carrobie euphemistically terms it, "roasty toasty".

    That's 11 billion people that god will keep alive for all eternity, burning in agony in the flames of hell. Kept alive by his almighty power remember - no blessed release for these naughty ones, oh no.

    That is one VERY big lake of eternal fire that Jesus, the god who so loved the world that he came and died for all those he is now frying for eternity, will be presiding over.

    Of course, "eternal burning in hell" might just be a teeny bit of a religious error. But I'll fry myself just for saying that according to some here.

    C'est la vie...
  14. Standard membersonship
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    09 Dec '14 04:44
    From The Christian a publication with articles by Watchman Nee

    Many people, in an attempt to earn a reputation for themselves of being clever and smart, use many deceitful words to cheat others. They may indeed earn a name of being clever and smart. But are they really clever and smart? This is only deceitfulness and craftiness. Most of the people in the world who are clever and smart are actually deceitful and crafty. Moreover, the world realizes that the so-called clever and smart ones are actually deceitful and crafty. They know. They may know better than we do. But they still call these ones clever and smart. Why is this? They accept this lie because they are also used to lying. To someone who lies, a deceitful and crafty person is clever and smart. Oh, how the world excels in lying!
  15. Standard membersonship
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    09 Dec '14 04:461 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    You have been perfectly clear. I understand your ideology.
    No you do not understand. You have not read carefully many things I wrote.
    You saw words and thought the thoughts you desired to think.

    Please point out the contradiction you allege I make in this thread related to the assurance of eternal redemption.

    In this thread do you recall me writing above -

    By that time of the last judgment of the great white throne, lying will have either been eliminated out of human behavior or all the lying ones left will perish.
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