Handy Andy's Question on All Liars

Originally posted by sonship
I believe that my entire human makeup includes a spiritual part and I am not JUST a big cerebrum. And I think if you deny a spiritual dimension to your human make up you are short changing your own humanity.

I understand what you mean. However, my experience has led me to the opposite conclusion. Yes, I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our each and every human 'make up'.

But speaking as a former Christian who can understand your mind map and predicament, and now speaking as a non-Christian who has escaped the confines of the circular logic that you have carefully erected around yourself using one book detailing one particular strain of supernatural mythology, I believe it is you ~ as I have suggested many times over the years ~ who are "short changing your own humanity", as you put it.

I think your meticulous religiosity is at the expense of the full capacity of your spiritual dimension. As I have said before ~ and I appreciate that you do not agree ~ you come across as a joyless technocrat issuing pronouncements on a sterile, incessantly self-referencing creed.

You've ended up basing it all on the meaning you extrapolate from one compilation of folklore and figures that either cannot stand up or collapses if one does not engage in blind faith in that particular dollop of mystical literature than mankind happens to have produced.

Originally posted by FMF
I understand what you mean. However, my experience has led me to the opposite conclusion. Yes, I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our each and every human 'make up'.

But speaking as a former Christian who can understand your mind map and predicament, and now speaking as a non-Christian who has escaped the confines of the circular logic that you h ...[text shortened]... nd faith in that particular dollop of mystical literature than mankind happens to have produced.

I understand what you mean. However, my experience has led me to the opposite conclusion. Yes, I believe we all have a spiritual dimension to our each and every human 'make up'.

You also believe there is a spiritual component to the human make up. Handy seems to refer to this as "smoke and mirrors".

But speaking as a former Christian

As I said a long time back, I don't know that.

who can understand your mind map and predicament,

What "predicament" ?

and now speaking as a non-Christian who has escaped the confines of the circular logic that you have carefully erected around yourself using one book detailing one particular strain of supernatural mythology,

I really would not be impressed even if you are old drinking buddies with Judas Iscariot himself. I don't know that you are a former Christian.

I knew God - followed by some years of being totally amnesiac about God's existence. And by His mercy I rediscovered my former communion and fellowship with God once I became clearer about the Person behind the name Jesus.

I don't know that you could have "blacked out" too.
The "former Christian" who with a wink and a smile can assure me that you "understand" my thinking doesn't work on me FMF.

In a previous post you wrote something like this - paraphrased - "I was a Christian - to be specific a Catholic". I thought it was telling. Many of us know that if a Catholic Church gets a young person for the first seven years of their life they can have a Catholic for life. It does not mean they ever received Christ and were regenerated.

I have met backsliders of many strips and colors. Within Christiandom there are many cultural "Christians" who would swear they once were Christians.

I believe it is you ~ as I have suggested many times over the years ~ who are "short changing your own humanity", as you put it.

You're welcome to have that opinion. It doesn't impress me because my spiritual experience is confirmed around the globe on all five continents by a very large family.

This very coming Sunday "or Lord's day" I will gather for the enjoyment of God with Korean speaking, Chinese speaking, Spanish speaking, English speaking "saints". Culturally we are far apart. In the Spirit of Jesus Christ we enjoy an unspeakable oneness. We know that we are all in one Body of Christ. And we know that we know.

I am not isolated or a spiritual lone ranger stylizing arguments from my individualistic rocking chair here. The flame of faith has come down through the ages and gone around the planet. And you're going to have to work real hard to convince me Christ is not the risen and victorious Lord come to us as the Holy Spirit.

I think your meticulous religiosity is at the expense of the full capacity of your spiritual dimension. As I have said before ~ and I appreciate that you do not agree ~ you come across as a joyless technocrat issuing pronouncements on a sterile, incessantly self-referencing creed.

If you have some reason that your confusion should offer me more joy than the moment by moment fellowship I enjoy personally and corporately in Christ, I haven't seen a speck of it yet.

As expected, you round your little diatribe off with your typical disdain for those of us who confess Jesus is Lord.

I sometimes wonder just who it is you're trying to get even with.

You've ended up basing it all on the meaning you extrapolate from one compilation of folklore and figures that either cannot stand up or collapses if one does not engage in blind faith in that particular dollop of mystical literature than mankind happens to have produced.

I can sure afford letting you have the last disgruntled and bothered parting shot on this one. I do sometimes wonder who it is you want to get even with.

and now speaking as a non-Christian who has escaped the confines of the circular logic that you have carefully erected around yourself using one book detailing one particular strain of supernatural mythology,

Circular logic.

Well some circularity of logic is justified in the case of God because He is after all "The First and the Last" and "The Beginning and the End" and "the Alpha and the Omega".

It all starts with God.
It all ends up with God.

This has to be a justified circularity of reality I think.

Originally posted by sonship
The "former Christian" who with a wink and a smile can assure me that you "understand" my thinking doesn't work on me FMF.

I am not trying to get something that will "work on" you, sonship. If your faith enhances your life as you seek to live it, then good for you. I am simply responding to the claims you make about reality as I see it.

The you-don't-think-I-was-a-Christian thing doesn't work on me, either, as it happens. You are not the only Christian poster here who falls back on that old chestnut when discussing my take on belief and unbelief. Suffice to say, as an ex-Christian I certainly understand what makes you tick much better than an ex-Muslim would.

I find your behaviour quite interesting and the nature of some of the things you choose to say in your response (above) rather revealing. One thing about the spiritual path I choose to take, is that I never use argumentum ad populum to buttress it, which I think you do on many occasions ~ and in the post above in particular.

If your sense of belonging to a large group of people who have the same religious beliefs makes you happy then I think that's good. I don't need you to change. If you switch to another really big religion, and that makes you happy, it won't make any difference to me.

Originally posted by sonship
Circular logic. [etc. etc.]

No, I was referring to whole 'God directed the writing of the Bible ~ so the Bible is true ~ so God exists and directed the writing of the Bible' thing, without which you have absolutely nothing. Your being convinced that this circular logic is good logic and "the truth" is not 'evidence' of anything except of what your personal beliefs happen to be.

Originally posted by FMF

I am not trying to get something that will "work on" you, sonship. If your faith enhances your life as you seek to live it, then good for you.

Yes, I am very fortunate.
Others can partake of this good fortune too !!

I am simply responding to the claims you make about reality as I see it.
The you-don't-think-I-was-a-Christian thing doesn't work on me, either, as it happens. You are not the only Christian poster

not the first, won't be the last Christian poster.

... I certainly understand what makes you tick much better than an ex-Muslim would.

Cut to the chase. What do you have now that is better than the Son of God?

I found out why I am alive.
I found love eternal.
I found what I really need ... a Person.
I found my destiny.
I found "the desire of the nations".
I found victory over sin and death.
I found peace with God.
I found (as Grampy puts it ) the "royal family".

What does you philosophy offer me that's better than Jesus Christ the Son of God ?

I find your behaviour quite interesting and the nature of some of the things you choose to say in your response (above) rather revealing.

Fascinating.

Again, what do you have that will give me more joy than salvation in Christ ? What does your philosophy offer me ?

Originally posted by sonship
Again what do you have that will give me more joy than salvation in Christ ? What does your philosophy offer me ?

I don't make any claims about what may or may not give you more joy than what you have already settled upon. I do not have to somehow trump whatever you have in your imagination with some alternative supernatural fantasy in order to tell you that I find a lot of what you imagine and claim to be true to be either useless or incoherent.

Originally posted by sonship
I found out why I am alive.
I found love eternal.
I found what I really need ... a Person.
I found my destiny.
I found "the desire of the nations".
I found victory over sin and death.
I found peace with God.
I found (as Grampy puts it ) the "royal family".

Like I said, if believing these things enhances your life as you seek to live it, then good for you.

Originally posted by FMF
Like I said, if believing these things enhances your life as you seek to live it, then good for you.

But if it is all a delusion than how can it be "good" for me?
I think you have to take a position that if the Bible is a lie and Jesus is a delusion than to follow a delusion is in fact not good for anyone.

You propose to know the truth which is better than the falsehood.
Don't now fall back on an all encompassing relativism.