1. Joined
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    17 Mar '10 23:41
    A real hero.
  2. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    18 Mar '10 00:12
    Originally posted by josephw
    A real hero.
    As opposed to what, Audie Murphy?
  3. Joined
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    18 Mar '10 03:08
    Originally posted by rwingett
    As opposed to what, Audie Murphy?
    You don't know who she is?

    As opposed to Rachel Corrie.
  4. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Mar '10 03:38
    Originally posted by josephw
    A real hero.
    Joe, can you explain to me why it is that so many fundamentalist or born-again or god fearing Christians, in the US, have right leaning and often extreme right leaning political views.
    It seems that many of these people - and I'm including you here too obviously - go from their religious belief to government is bad, free markets are good, socialism is evil, taxation should be abolished, and so on.
    I don't get how these views stem from religious belief?
    (Truth be told, I don't get these views full stop.But maybe that's for another thread.)
  5. Territories Unknown
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    18 Mar '10 03:42
    In a word, freedom.
  6. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Mar '10 03:46
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    In a word, freedom.
    Hardly. How does government, taxes, and regulated markets mark anyone less free?
  7. Illinois
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    18 Mar '10 05:092 edits
    Originally posted by amannion
    Joe, can you explain to me why it is that so many fundamentalist or born-again or god fearing Christians, in the US, have right leaning and often extreme right leaning political views.
    It seems that many of these people - and I'm including you here too obviously - go from their religious belief to government is bad, free markets are good, socialism is evil ef?
    (Truth be told, I don't get these views full stop.But maybe that's for another thread.)
    A good part of it (i.e., right-leaning politics) is cultural, finding no basis in Christian belief. I've had long arguments with my wife's conservative Christian family about health care, for instance. To me it's an obvious moral imperative for a society to ensure the well-being of its people, whether they are blessed with money or not. Peoples' lives have inherent worth despite their financial standing. Yet I've been astonished by my fellow Christians saying essentially, "Tough cookies, life ain't fair; we aren't responsible for poor people." Which isn't too far from, "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out." To tell you the truth, I really don't understand it and can't explain it.

    There's nothing in the word of God that tells me taxation should be abolished, that free markets are the way to go, that I shouldn't support public programs like health care, etc. Whoever sold these concepts to Christians as being somehow inextricable from their beliefs must have been a silver-tongued devil indeed. The only depressing aspect of being a Christian in America I can think of is how lockstep the majority of my fellow Christians are with each other politically. It's easy to love them all because we all share the same Christ, but that only makes it harder to see my brothers and sisters so completely sold out to the right-wing wolf in sheep's clothing.

    When people ask me whether I'm a Dem or a Republican, I just tell them I'm unaffiliated. In my mind all Christians should be politically unaffiliated.
  8. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Mar '10 06:09
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    A good part of it (i.e., right-leaning politics) is cultural, finding no basis in Christian belief. I've had long arguments with my wife's conservative Christian family about health care, for instance. To me it's an obvious moral imperative for a society to ensure the well-being of its people, whether they are blessed with money or not. Peoples' lives ...[text shortened]... affiliated. In my mind all Christians should be politically unaffiliated.
    Yeah, the health care debate you guys have been going through particularly baffles me. Coming from a country where everyone has access to public medical and dental care if needed, and where medical insurance companies still flourish, I don't get it. (Mind you, our system is not perfect of course.)
  9. Joined
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    18 Mar '10 11:20
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    A good part of it (i.e., right-leaning politics) is cultural, finding no basis in Christian belief. I've had long arguments with my wife's conservative Christian family about health care, for instance. To me it's an obvious moral imperative for a society to ensure the well-being of its people, whether they are blessed with money or not. Peoples' lives ...[text shortened]... affiliated. In my mind all Christians should be politically unaffiliated.
    "To me it's an obvious moral imperative for a society to ensure the well-being of its people,.."

    At what cost? The loss of freedom and liberty. The current health care plan being crammed down our throats is not about health care in case you haven't noticed.

    Government should be limited as outlined in our constitution.

    But forget it. The ship is sunk anyway. I will be amazed if we survive the coming catastrophe.
  10. Joined
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    18 Mar '10 11:26
    Originally posted by amannion
    Yeah, the health care debate you guys have been going through particularly baffles me. Coming from a country where everyone has access to public medical and dental care if needed, and where medical insurance companies still flourish, I don't get it. (Mind you, our system is not perfect of course.)
    Nothing IS perfect. Improvements can be made. But the issue here in America isn't about providing health care. It's about a GOVERNMENT program designed by a bunch of elitist liberals that are power hungry and will cease at nothing to destroy American exceptionalism by taking control of the private sector.

    It's that simple.
  11. Joined
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    18 Mar '10 11:30
    Originally posted by amannion
    Hardly. How does government, taxes, and regulated markets mark anyone less free?
    Government too big, and costly.

    Taxes too high, and wasteful.

    Regulations too strict, and repressive.
  12. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    18 Mar '10 13:10
    Originally posted by josephw
    Government too big, and costly.

    Taxes too high, and wasteful.

    Regulations too strict, and repressive.
    Excuses, excuses, excuses. Your duty is to help the poor and oppressed, not worry about the costs involved.
  13. Illinois
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    18 Mar '10 20:001 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"To me it's an obvious moral imperative for a society to ensure the well-being of its people,.."

    At what cost? The loss of freedom and liberty. The current health care plan being crammed down our throats is not about health care in case you haven't noticed.

    Government should be limited as outlined in our constitution.

    But forget it. The ship is sunk anyway. I will be amazed if we survive the coming catastrophe.[/b]
    At what cost? The loss of freedom and liberty.

    Have you counted the cost of not ensuring the well-being of everyone? Ironically, the American government spends way more on health care per capita than most other countries. No system is perfect, but I guarantee we could spend less than we do now and insure everybody with a sensible overhaul to health care. There are other costs as well. When people get sick, they can't work. If they can't afford proper health care, they don't get better. If they can't get better, they stop being productive members of society. Spending slows, costs of everyday items go down and recession looms. It is not only morally right to take care of the sick and dying because every individual has inherent worth, it is also economically rewarding in the long run.

    Government should be limited as outlined in our constitution.

    Do you know what percentage of America is owned by the government? Less than 1%. The propaganda tells you that we are ever on the verge of socialism, yet we could hardly be further away from it.

    But forget it. The ship is sunk anyway. I will be amazed if we survive the coming catastrophe.

    Are you referring to Peak Oil?
  14. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Mar '10 20:58
    Originally posted by josephw
    Nothing IS perfect. Improvements can be made. But the issue here in America isn't about providing health care. It's about a GOVERNMENT program designed by a bunch of elitist liberals that are power hungry and will cease at nothing to destroy American exceptionalism by taking control of the private sector.

    It's that simple.
    Well, obviously I'm no expert on your system, but I do know that universal health care can work and I'm glad I live in a place where I can get it.
    I'm forever fascinated by this 'American exceptionalism' you guys never fail to spout. As if the US was the only decent place on Earth to live. As if Americans have some sort of monopoly on good or decent or hard working or whatever.
    Give me a choice between anywhere on the planet to live and I'd gladly choose my own country. But I also recognise that there are many places in the world that would be nice to live - including some in the US. I'm patriotic. I love my country. I served in the military, which you Americans would probably say proves it. But would I rant about how Australia is the best place in the world? Hardly.
    So why do you guys? Clearly America is not the bext place in the world or everyone on Earth would want to be there. So what's the reason for your smug sense of superiority?
  15. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    18 Mar '10 21:46
    Originally posted by amannion
    Well, obviously I'm no expert on your system, but I do know that universal health care can work and I'm glad I live in a place where I can get it.
    I'm forever fascinated by this 'American exceptionalism' you guys never fail to spout. As if the US was the only decent place on Earth to live. As if Americans have some sort of monopoly on good or decent or har ...[text shortened]... n Earth would want to be there. So what's the reason for your smug sense of superiority?
    Norway is the best country in the world. And I've never been there.
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