1. St. Peter's
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    24 Mar '11 14:42
    I'd rather be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied---John Stuart Mill
  2. Standard memberua41
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    24 Mar '11 18:15
    "What's the difference?" -Ua
  3. St. Peter's
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    24 Mar '11 19:25
    Originally posted by ua41
    "What's the difference?" -Ua
    higher order of happiness. Socrates might be dissatisfied, but only because he is aware that there is injustice and inequity in society. A pig is oblivious to such things and craves only physical satisfaction. When Socrates is satisfied then the quality of that happiness is such that the memeory alone will carry him through his dissatisfaction.
  4. Joined
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    24 Mar '11 20:383 edits
    Originally posted by ua41
    "What's the difference?" -Ua
    Are you asking what is the difference between a Socrates dissatisfied and a pig satisfied or
    are you asking what is the difference between a Socrates satisfied and a pig satisfied?

    Doward assumed the latter but Doward said “ Socrates dissatisfied” and not “ Socrates satisfied” in his first post -But maybe I am just being pedantic pain in the ^£%&^H ***!!! ?
  5. Standard memberua41
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    24 Mar '11 20:48
    Originally posted by Doward
    higher order of happiness. Socrates might be dissatisfied, but only because he is aware that there is injustice and inequity in society. A pig is oblivious to such things and craves only physical satisfaction. When Socrates is satisfied then the quality of that happiness is such that the memeory alone will carry him through his dissatisfaction.
    Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at. I understand the sentiment- the pig lost in his pen, only has mud and food around him, doesn't see the even grander picture for what everything really is. Socrates tries to unveil all essence etc. and is unsatisfied with the current picture of everything.

    As far as I'm concerned- I'm in the pig pen no matter my mode of thinking. If I look at the bigger picture, see how everything really is, I still have my food scraps and mud piles to roll around in. Socrates was just afraid to make the mud into sculptures.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    24 Mar '11 23:48
    Originally posted by ua41
    Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at. I understand the sentiment- the pig lost in his pen, only has mud and food around him, doesn't see the even grander picture for what everything really is. Socrates tries to unveil all essence etc. and is unsatisfied with the current picture of everything.

    As far as I'm concerned- I'm in the ...[text shortened]... ps and mud piles to roll around in. Socrates was just afraid to make the mud into sculptures.
    Socrates was scared to make a big mud mohawk!!
  7. St. Peter's
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    25 Mar '11 12:12
    Originally posted by ua41
    Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at. I understand the sentiment- the pig lost in his pen, only has mud and food around him, doesn't see the even grander picture for what everything really is. Socrates tries to unveil all essence etc. and is unsatisfied with the current picture of everything.

    As far as I'm concerned- I'm in the ...[text shortened]... ps and mud piles to roll around in. Socrates was just afraid to make the mud into sculptures.
    Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at


    I disagree. A slight disclaimer here: The actual qoute should be ""it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied". I shortened it for expedience, though that was likely a mistake.

    Happiness can be divided into two kinds. The lower order would be animal appetites, flesh pleasures and cheep thrills. Think NASCAR, roller coasters, rich foods, drink, and sex. These do nothing to create an abiding sense of contentment or social harmony. Some of them are merely opiates for the masses, or the only pleasures some people are capable of enjoying (numerous reasons here).

    Higher order happiness is created by feeding the intellect, dignity, duty, nobility, reason, imagination etc.. We feed our minds with Robert Frost, Kirkagaard, reflection on social order etc, and this happiness is of a much higher quality than the lower order. When a person has learned to absorb this type of happiness, the animal pleasures and appetites have less of an impact and seem petty.
  8. Standard memberua41
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    25 Mar '11 15:411 edit
    Originally posted by Doward
    [b]Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at


    I disagree. A slight disclaimer here: The actual qoute should be ""it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied". I shortened it for expedience, though that was likely a mistake.

    Happiness can be di ...[text shortened]... type of happiness, the animal pleasures and appetites have less of an impact and seem petty.[/b]
    For the most part, I agree with this. I'm the first to talk out against people getting caught up in useless things (e.g. feeding the flesh desires), materialism etc. Living in the san francisco bay area, a lot of hearts around here are cold, and the social structure (culturally, economically/financially, and even infrastructure wise) keeps us penned up like cattle. People keep their head down, focused on their bank account, or smart phone, or going to some club to indulge on substance abuse and impersonal intimacy.

    I had a conversation with a group of friends where I told them a brief outline of an idea for a self sustainable community. Capitalistic economics tend to be based on exploitation. While we go parading around the streets in our shoes sewed up by some poor suffering kid who's wages go to a corrupt government, and we keep other people responsible for our essentials on the lower end of the totem pole, we have choices about how we want to live. My drummer tells me, "What if I just want to have fun? It's not like I'm directly and personally keeping someone down. My motives are good and all, all I want to do is go to bars and see the ladies"
    "Well then, you just aren't aware of the footprints you're leaving and you're confining yourself to a limited form of pleasure. I can't really consider you sentient, either- you're just another sheep in the herd not thinking and unaware" - of course a lot of my response is definitely calling myself out.

    Either way, the happiness I do find through spiritual, intellectual, scientific etc means are just further aspects of my flesh desires. Who I am doesn't respond to NASCAR, baseball, fancy clothes and cars, but I respond to sutras, philosophies, music etc. It's all transient either way. You can have your existentialist background, but I think the truest fulfillment of it if how are you going to apply it across all the menial tasks? How are you going to gain the intellectual happiness from the everyday, materialistic things people do around you? Or are you going to make the distinction- afraid to make the mud in sculptures? See the potential that everything has- it's all in front of us.
  9. Joined
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    25 Mar '11 16:52
    Originally posted by Doward
    [b]Orders of happiness is somewhat ambiguous is what I was getting at


    I disagree. A slight disclaimer here: The actual qoute should be ""it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied". I shortened it for expedience, though that was likely a mistake.

    Happiness can be di ...[text shortened]... type of happiness, the animal pleasures and appetites have less of an impact and seem petty.[/b]
    Quote: "The actual qoute should be ""it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied"."

    Yes, but if you were a fool satisfied, wouldn't you say that's what you'd rather be?😛
  10. St. Peter's
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    25 Mar '11 17:03
    Originally posted by JS357
    Quote: "The actual qoute should be ""it is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied"."

    Yes, but if you were a fool satisfied, wouldn't you say that's what you'd rather be?😛
    A fool woulld never bother to contempate such a thing, let alone a satisfied fool
  11. Joined
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    25 Mar '11 19:36
    Originally posted by Doward
    A fool woulld never bother to contempate such a thing, let alone a satisfied fool
    I'm beginning to like that option.
  12. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    26 Mar '11 10:20
    He's not talking about different orders of happiness. He's saying that he would rather be smart than happy.
  13. St. Peter's
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    26 Mar '11 11:11
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    He's not talking about different orders of happiness. He's saying that he would rather be smart than happy.
    What is the purpose of all human beings?
  14. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    26 Mar '11 11:24
    Originally posted by Doward
    What is the purpose of all human beings?
    I'm not sure that we have a purpose beyond simply existing and passing on our genes.
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    26 Mar '11 11:28
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    I'm not sure that we have a purpose beyond simply existing and passing on our genes.
    Then what is the point of doing even that?
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