13 Jan 15
I'd like someone to talk about physical changes in a life form through DNA.
Explain the details that would allow both a physical change to be built so
that it would give rise to a new body part, and how would that new body
part know to function correctly?
For example why would a heart not only form, but know to beat? Why
would any new part of a life form get not only its form, but also its
function. Keep in mind that some where within DNA without direction all
of the mutations need to build upon one another in such away that they
will put everything where it is needed, and have them do what is
required as well.
What makes this new something in DNA possible?
13 Jan 15
Organs generally form bit by bit over time. They do not appear suddenly fully formed. They also frequently change function over time.
The formation of organs is largely accidental. It does not 'know what is needed' ahead of time. In fact, the assumption that something is needed in the first place is somewhat flawed.
Its a pity that the full version of this article is not free, but even the summary might give you an idea of how the heart evolved:
This review provides an overview of the evolutionary path to the mammalian heart from the beginnings of life (about four billion years ago ) to the present. Essential tools for cellular homeostasis and for extracting and burning energy are still in use and essentially unchanged since the appearance of the eukaryotes. The primitive coelom, characteristic of early multicellular organisms ( approximately 800 million years ago), is lined by endoderm and is a passive receptacle for gas exchange, feeding, and sexual reproduction. The cells around this structure express genes homologous to NKX2.5/tinman, and gradual specialization of this "gastroderm" results in the appearance of mesoderm in the phylum Bilateria, which will produce the first primitive cardiac myocytes. Investment of the coelom by these mesodermal cells forms a "gastrovascular" structure. Further evolution of this structure in the bilaterian branches Ecdysoa (Drosophila) and Deuterostoma (amphioxus) culminate in a peristaltic tubular heart, without valves, without blood vessels or blood, but featuring a single layer of contracting mesoderm. The appearance of Chordata and subsequently the vertebrates is accompanied by a rapid structural diversification of this primitive linear heart: looping, unidirectional circulation, an enclosed vasculature, and the conduction system. A later innovation is the parallel circulation to the lungs, followed by the appearance of septa and the four-chambered heart in reptiles, birds, and mammals. With differentiation of the cardiac chambers, regional specialization of the proteins in the cardiac myocyte can be detected in the teleost fish and amphibians. In mammals, growth constraints are placed on the heart, presumably to accommodate the constraints of the body plan and the thoracic cavity, and adult cardiac myocytes lose the ability to re-enter the cell cycle on demand. Mammalian cardiac myocyte innervation betrays the ancient link between the heart, the gut, and reproduction: the vagus nerve controlling heart rate emanates from centers in the central nervous system regulating feeding and affective behavior.
http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/16093481/Evolution-of-the-heart-from-bacteria-to-man.
The important things to note are:
1. Practically every stage of the evolution of the heart can be found and studied in existing living animals today.
2. Features of the existing hearts betray the common ancestry, and the 'family tree' of their evolution.
3. The mamalian heart evolved over hundreds of millions of years, and evolved bit by bit, not all at once.
4. The evolution of the genes necessary for the mammalian heart can be traced in detail if necessary.
13 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJay?
...how would that new body
part know to function correctly?
What is "correctly"
Maybe 998 out of 1,000 new body parts don't function at all.
1 out of 1,000 does nothing except hum "Abide With Me"
1 out of 1,000 does something very, very slightly advantageous to the organism.
Guess which adaptation gets passed down to the grand kids?
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis evolution idea of a heart or any other organ is pure fantasy. These parts of the body are obviously designed for their purpose by an intelligent being more intelligent than human beings. You may enjoying repeating this fairy tale for grownup atheists if you like, but don't expect any intelligent person to actually believe such nonsense. 😏
Organs generally form bit by bit over time. They do not appear suddenly fully formed. They also frequently change function over time.
The formation of organs is largely accidental. It does not 'know what is needed' ahead of time. In fact, the assumption that something is needed in the first place is somewhat flawed.
Its a pity that the full version ...[text shortened]... e evolution of the genes necessary for the mammalian heart can be traced in detail if necessary.
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by RJHindsThat is a fair point just because you get a heart why would it beat? Just
This evolution idea of a heart or any other organ is pure fantasy. These parts of the body are obviously designed for their purpose by an intelligent being more intelligent than human beings. You may enjoying repeating this fairy tale for grownup atheists if you like, but don't expect any intelligent person to actually believe such nonsense. 😏
because you get an eye why would it see? The form is just the form the
function is quite another topic all together, the evolutionist seem to think
that it just goes with the form an eye automatically means sight.
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14 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayIt's been explained to you many times now. I guess the most important thing to remember is that there is no forethought involved in evolutionary development, so when those first few cells for what would evolve into a heart formed, they were either useful to the organism in some other way, or they got to piggy ride with other traits that made the organism in question successful. But they weren't "meant to be" the beginnings of a heart specifically. Every biological change is of this nature. There's no direction or end goal to evolution.
I'd like someone to talk about physical changes in a life form through DNA.
Explain the details that would allow both a physical change to be built so
that it would give rise to a new body part, and how would that new body
part know to function correctly?
For example why would a heart not only form, but know to beat? Why
would any new part of a life ...[text shortened]... d, and have them do what is
required as well.
What makes this new something in DNA possible?
Well, as a religious person you may think that it's a guided process, and personally I'm fine with that. Many scientists believe this to be the case. All I can say as an atheist is that guided evolution is indistinguishable from natural selection on random mutations.
14 Jan 15
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThe idiots seem to think that an eye or a heart just *poof* comes into existence without many, many prior steps.
That is a fair point just because you get a heart why would it beat? Just
because you get an eye why would it see? The form is just the form the
function is quite another topic all together, the evolutionist seem to think
that it just goes with the form an eye automatically means sight.
Are you really so dim to not understand that all body parts - large and small - have gradually developed from the simplest of structures?
Can you not imagine the eye is the result of a simple molecule or cell that was a little bit more sensitive to light, giving the organism having that cell a slight advantage and thus giving its offspring a slight advantage?
Why are you so desperate to cling to the idea that body parts must have come into existence wholly formed?
Which messed up science books have you been reading??
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by C HessNo, nothing has answered what I've just started asking! You build a form,
It's been explained to you many times now. I guess the most important thing to remember is that there is no forethought involved in evolutionary development, so when those first few cells for what would evolve into a heart formed, they were either useful to the organism in some other way, or they got to piggy ride with other traits that made the organism in q ...[text shortened]... theist is that guided evolution is indistinguishable from natural selection on random mutations.
but getting the form to function is done how? Seriously, getting an eye does
not mean sight automatically, yet with you it does, why? Getting the thing
to form and getting it to act in some fashion are two completely different
topics all together!
You wish to just assume that a nerve will behave the way it is supposed
to under the conditions it finds itself in, so why? The nerves in fingers are
not the same ones going to my eyes for sight, so exactly when they were
being formed and one went one way and the other acted in another fashion
those are not just random choices, they served a purpose as do all the
various functions within living systems. I get it if we are talking about
design, there is nothing at all that would guide a random mutations to
slowing turn an eye something that has sight, there is nothing that would
allow a light sensitive spot to send or receive information making it both
understood and useful, those are mutations with purpose or they are
impossible given no fore thought or guiding hand. You really do need
evolution eyes to believe that!
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by Great King RatThank you for the insult, but it isn't just the eye it is every function within
The idiots seem to think that an eye or a heart just *poof* comes into existence without many, many prior steps.
Are you really so dim to not understand that all body parts - large and small - have gradually developed from the simplest of structures?
Can you not imagine the eye is the result of a simple molecule or cell that was a little bit mor ...[text shortened]... have come into existence wholly formed?
Which messed up science books have you been reading??
every living system! Even the simple cell has various forms and functions
within it, those were coded to form that way through DNA, coded means it
didn't just happen it was molded as it was being reproduced. The changes
happen in the code not while the body was under going some outside
pressure or other stress. The only way these changes could ever happen
would be in DNA, and they would either be good for the life form or bad
and more happen that are bad or useless than good. On top of the rare
exception of the good ones you'd have these good ones repeating over and
over again producing systems, organs, and so on. It is laughable when
you look at all the things that can go wrong inside DNA and the world the
life form finds itself in that such complex building blocks of would occur
over time.
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayOne simple mutation in a plant, a mutation of one SINGLE nucleotide - a SNP, or Single Nucleotide Polymorphism - can cause a plant to become slightly more or wholly resistant to a certain virus, giving that particular plant a major boost in survival chances compared to its neighboring plants. These mutations can and do happen without "intelligent guidance", for instance under the influence of the sun's rays.
No, nothing has answered what I've just started asking! You build a form,
but getting the form to function is done how? Seriously, getting an eye does
not mean sight automatically, yet with you it does, why? Getting the thing
to form and getting it to act in some fashion are two completely different
topics all together!
You wish to just assume that a ...[text shortened]... sible given no fore thought or guiding hand. You really do need
evolution eyes to believe that!
There was no "goal" set for this mutation, yet it happening has a major influence on the plant, and possibly for the entire population simply because the plant and its offspring will have a higher chance of survival.
Are you really saying this can not happen?
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by Great King RatA plant is a fully functioning living system! The plant for all you know were
One simple mutation in a plant, a mutation of one SINGLE nucleotide - a SNP, or Single Nucleotide Polymorphism - can cause a plant to become slightly more or wholly resistant to a certain virus, giving that particular plant a major boost in survival chances compared to its neighboring plants. These mutations can and do happen without "intelligent guid ...[text shortened]... s offspring will have a higher chance of survival.
Are you really saying this can not happen?
designed to behave that way! I want to know from you why things behave
the way they do! Give me that answer and I'll look at what you have to say
about it.
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou deserve the insult. Every bit of it.
Thank you for the insult, but it isn't just the eye it is every function within
every living system! Even the simple cell has various forms and functions
within it, those were coded to form that way through DNA, coded means it
didn't just happen it was molded as it was being reproduced. The changes
happen in the code not while the body was under going s ...[text shortened]... orld the
life form finds itself in that such complex building blocks of would occur
over time.
Read a "Science for dummies" book for crying out loud.
On top of the rare exception of the good ones you'd have these good ones repeating over and over again
You don't understand why "good" or "beneficial" mutations have a higher chance of remaining in a population than a "bad" mutation?
In the case of the plant and the mutation giving higher virus resistance, you really don't understand why, after a significant number of generations, the "mutated" genome might be far more prevalent than the "wildtype" genome?
This does not compute for you?
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat have you done to find the answers yourself??
A plant is a fully functioning living system! The plant for all you know were
designed to behave that way! I want to know from you why things behave
the way they do! Give me that answer and I'll look at what you have to say
about it.
Which science books have you read that discuss the development of cellular structures and more complex structures?
Which lectures have you followed?
I know you read the bible to tell you how to live your life, but how about you stop expecting be spoon fed everything, and actually do some leg work yourself?
14 Jan 15
Originally posted by Great King RatI'm sure you feel that way, after all I disagree with you.
You deserve the insult. Every bit of it.
Read a "Science for dummies" book for crying out loud.
[b]On top of the rare exception of the good ones you'd have these good ones repeating over and over again
You don't understand why "good" or "beneficial" mutations have a higher chance of remaining in a population than a "bad" mutation?
In t ...[text shortened]... genome might be far more prevalent than the "wildtype" genome?
This does not compute for you?[/b]