Hear the Gospel

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, so you must resort to worldly theologians and the words of lexicographers to establish your credentials, well we have had the apocrypha, so I suppose anything is possible. your argument seems to stem from the quotation of an individual who states that there is no basis for understanding of a word from an etymological basis, naturally as the mea ...[text shortened]... unrepentant complete separation from god with no resurrection prospects, 'the second death'.

lol, so you must resort to worldly theologians and the words of lexicographers to establish your credentials...

It's called research. If you want to be taken seriously, then you should consider citing at least a few legitimate sources of your own.

Furthermore, by citing scholarly publications I'm not attempting to establish my credentials, rather the credibility of the argument I'm presenting. If you think I'm engaged in this debate with you for the sake of one-upmanship, you are sorely mistaken.

...naturally as the meanings of words change, this of course is a fallacy in itself as many words do maintain their etymological value...

True enough, many words do maintain their etymological value, but not all; certainly not in the case of kolasis, a historical fact which the sources I've cited testify to.

Now would be a good time to provide some kind of scholarly material in order to refute the materials which I've provided. Otherwise your argument lacks a basis, and therefore does not deserve serious consideration.

...even if it does mean punishment, it is the nature of the punishment that we are interested in, while you state that it means eternal punishment in a mythical burning...

The nature of the punishment is described in Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Revelation gives more information on this future condition of the devil. The beast and the false prophet will be "thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone" (19:20). Then the devil will be cast into the same lake (20:10), and they "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (v. 10). Then verse 15 states that "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." While these verses only say explicitly that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented forever and ever, no statement suggests that the persons whose names are not written in the book of life have any different fate in the lake of fire. This supports the view that the punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:41, 46 is also everlasting in nature.

In fact, earlier in Revelation there is an account of human beings who are explicitly condemned to eternal torment. Revelation 14:9-11 reads, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night."

This passage, Revelation 14:9-11, at least establishes the fact that eternal torment for an individual soul exists, and annihilates (so to speak) the argument that God would not permit such a punishment to be so.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]lol, so you must resort to worldly theologians and the words of lexicographers to establish your credentials...

It's called research. If you want to be taken seriously, then you should consider citing at least a few legitimate sources of your own.

Furthermore, by citing scholarly publications I'm not attempting to establish my creden (so to speak) the argument that God would not permit such a punishment to be so.[/

actually from now on i am just going to cut and paste my former statement, as i have provided more than enough legitimate sources for your enlightenment, if you choose to either ignore them, then no problem i dont really want to hang out with dealers in torment anyway, its umm rather inhumane, to say the least

secondly i do not really care for your dubious and unfounded statements based on nothing more than the words of men and their so called knowledge, and as i have already stated to jaywill and yourself at some length, the lake of fire is symbolic and means the second death, for how is it that Death and Hades, the false prophet and the wild beast, ALL OF THEM SYMBOLIC can be tortured eternally? duh! what is god going to do? prod Death and Hades with a big stick every time they try to get out of the 'fire', NO NO YOU ARE TALKING UTTER MINCE AGAIN,
but once again the scriptures expose your fallacy because Satan cannot be tormented eternally, for the scriptures state that the Christ will destroy him, Hebrews 2:14,

the whole premise for your error stems from the satanic lie that the human soul is immortal, 'you positively will not die ', stated the serpent, exactly the same thing that you are stating, 'but god on the other hand stated that the punishment for Adam and Eve was, eternal torment, no, death, for from dust you are and to dust you will return, thus not only is your estimation etymologically and scripturally unreasonable but the basis for your claims are completely erroneous from this simple stance that something of humans survives death, because if there is nothing immortal within humans that somehow survives death, then how can the be tortured eternally? no no your god dishonoring thoughts are a misrepresentation and are completely and utterly inharmonious with the bible in its entirety, and with the revealed personage of god

once more i will reproduce my stance, which no amount of Babylonian satanic reasoning, with appeals to worldly theologians nor apocryphal books will persuade me otherwise,

Matt. 25:46: 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment 'lopping off,' Greek, kolasin,' but the righteous into life eternal.'

The Emphatic Diaglott reads 'cutting-off', instead of 'punishment.' a footnote states: 'Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies,

1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune.

2. To restrain, to repress. . . .

3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word.

The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9

2 Thess. 1:9, Revised Standard version: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” other translations “Eternal ruin, 'lost eternally,' 'eternal punishment in destruction,

so not only does the translation represent the true entomological meaning of the word but it is reflective of other passages of the bible and as the footnote states quite clearly it completely harmonizes with the immediate context, preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis, thus we have no need of appeal to worldly theologians and dubious works of the Apocrypha, but instead turn to the inspired word to furnish us with a definition, for as the ancient record states, ''Do not interpretations belong to God?'', Genesis 40:8

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this is the stance that i am taking on this subject and any further comments by myself with regard to this verse will reflect this, for

Matt. 25:46: 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment 'lopping off,' Greek, kolasin,' but the righteous into life eternal.'

The Emphatic Diaglott reads 'cutting-off', instead of 'punishment.' a footnote ancient record states, ''Do not interpretations belong to God?'', Genesis 40:8

this is the stance that i am taking on this subject and any further comments by myself with regard to this verse will reflect this...

The Emphatic Diaglott is a Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication, used by Jehovah's Witnesses, and supports their heinously distorted New World Translation. The author, Benjamin Wilson, was an autodidact (self-taught) biblical scholar who lacked credentials in Greek.

This is your source? A discredited Bible translation written by a man without any credentials in the Greek language?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]this is the stance that i am taking on this subject and any further comments by myself with regard to this verse will reflect this...

The Emphatic Diaglott is a Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publication, used by Jehovah's Witnesses, and supports their heinously distorted New World Translation. The author, Benjamin Wilson, wa ...[text shortened]... A discredited Bible translation written by a man without any credentials in the Greek language?[/b]

lol, i just sourced it from the net and cut and pasted it, which seemed to harmonize with the other source that i cut and pasted, if you don't like it why are you telling me, i didn't write it, why don't you write to them, it is good enough for me, therefore i reproduce it for you again and as i have already stated, will continue to do so for it seems to me to harmonize with my understanding of the personage of god and my understanding of scripture, therfore once again for your benefit

Matt. 25:46: 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment 'lopping off,' Greek, kolasin,' but the righteous into life eternal.'

The Emphatic Diaglott reads 'cutting-off', instead of 'punishment.' a footnote states: 'Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies,

1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune.

2. To restrain, to repress. . . .

3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment - hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word.

The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9

2 Thess. 1:9, Revised Standard version: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” other translations “Eternal ruin, 'lost eternally,' 'eternal punishment in destruction,

so not only does the translation represent the true entomological meaning of the word but it is reflective of other passages of the bible and as the footnote states quite clearly it completely harmonizes with the immediate context, preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis, thus we have no need of appeal to worldly theologians and dubious works of the Apocrypha, but instead turn to the inspired word to furnish us with a definition, for as the ancient record states, ''Do not interpretations belong to God?'', Genesis 40:8

oh and you may want to watch your adjectives, who knows, they may even reflect something objective someday.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, i just sourced it from the net and cut and pasted it, which seemed to harmonize with the other source that i cut and pasted, if you don't like it why are you telling me, i didn't write it, why don't you write to them, it is good enough for me, therefore i reproduce it for you again and as i have already stated, will continue to do so for it seem ...[text shortened]... ur adjectives, who knows, they may even reflect something objective someday.

You've abandoned all argumentative discourse in favor of simply reproducing a discredited source over and over again.

It's safe to say that you've won this argument only in your mind.

If anyone would like an opportunity to hear the Gospel, here it is:

Jesus died for sinners on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4). His death was a sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2). This is the only way to be saved.

Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). He is the only way to God the Father (John 14;6). He alone reveals God (Matt. 11:27). He has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). It is only through Him that you can be saved from God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). He can forgive you of your sin (Luke 5:20; Matt. 9:2). He can remove the guilt that is upon your soul. Jesus can set you free from the bondage of sin that blinds your eyes, weakens your soul, and brings you to despair. He can do this because He bore sin in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24) that those who trust in Him would be saved.

If you are not a Christian, and want to be delivered from the righteous judgment of God upon you due to your sin against Him, then come to the One who died for the sins of the world. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:28). Turn from your sins. Believe and trust in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. Receive Christ (John 1:12). Only He can wash you clean from your sins and only Jesus can deliver you from the righteous judgment of a holy and infinite God. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.

He will.

Here is a sample prayer you can offer to Jesus. It does not have to be exact, but you will get the idea.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know that I am not perfect and that I cannot please you through my own efforts. I know that I deserve to be judged according to my sins. And, I know that I have nothing to offer you.

"Lord Jesus, I ask you to forgive me of my sins. Please cleanse me and make me right before you. I trust in what you have done on the cross. I do not rely on myself but only on you and I receive you as Lord of my life and as savior of my soul. Lord Jesus, save me. I look to you alone."

We are all Sinners

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."
Romans 3:10 - "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
James 2:10 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
James 4:17 - "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

The punishment for our Sin is Death

Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
John 3:18 - "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
James 1:15 - "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

CHRIST died to Save Sinners

Isaiah 53:5-6 - "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
Romans 5:8 - "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
1 Corinthians 15:3 - "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."
1 Timothy 1:15 - "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

CHRIST will save us IF we ask HIM

Psalm 34:4 - "I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears."
Psalm 34:18 - "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
Romans 10:9-10 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Romans 10:13 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Assurance of Salvation

John 5:24 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:39 - "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
John 10:27-28 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
1 John 5:11-13 - "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
1 Peter 1:5 - "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Sins Forgotten

Psalms 103:12 - "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."
Isaiah 38:17 - "Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back."
Isaiah 43:25 - "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
Hebrews 8:12 - "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."
Hebrews 10:17-18 - "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

The time for Salvation is Now

Proverbs 27:1 - "Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth."
Proverbs 29:1 - "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."
2 Corinthians 6:2 - "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
Hebrews 3:15 - "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."
James 4:14 - "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Works Profit Nothing

Isaiah 64:6 - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Romans 3:28 - "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Galatians 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Hell

Mark 9:43-44 - "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 21:8 - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

What is Repentance?

In the biblical sense true repentance means you change your mind and reason for living after coming under conviction of your sins and ungodliness before a perfect and righteous God. But God is merciful, and provides you a way to escape punishment for your sins. God offers you the free Gift of salvation (see below – considerations for eternal life). God’s salvation is from an eternal suffering in Hell without God to an eternity of joy in Heaven with God. True Repentance results in your spiritual birth (you are born again) and a new purpose for your life.

When you repent you come under strong conviction of your own sinfulness and guilt. You realize you are unworthy and helpless to stand before a holy and pure God. You also understand and appreciate God's mercy toward you, which is evidenced through the suffering and death of Christ on the cross for you. Yes, Jesus died in your place, and after repentance you will have a strong revulsion against sin. After repentance you will turn from your wicked ways and start a life journey with God. You strive to live a holy life to honor and serve our Lord for the rest of your life. This does not mean you will never sin again. But when you do, you will come under strong conviction to again confess your sins and receive a renewed forgiveness and cleansing.

1 John 1:8-9 - "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Select Bible passages on repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30 - "Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
Luke 5:32 - "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Luke 13:3 - "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."
Luke 24:47 - "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations,"
Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts 3:19 - "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,"
2 Corinthians 7:10 - "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You've abandoned all argumentative discourse in favor of simply reproducing a discredited source over and over again.

It's safe to say that you've won this argument only in your mind.

oh whats wrong you bad ol putty cat, is little ol robbie not prepared to accept your arguments based on error, apocryphal books, worldly theologians, satanic teachings, dodgy bible translations, misrepresentation of biblical verses, completely taken out of context, and why should i, because your evidence is scant to say the least and based on the erroneous assumption that the souls is immortal, thus it amounts to this

kolasis - punishment - punishment eternal - nature of punishment - everlasting fire - what fire? - same as is prepared for the devil and his angels - meaning - the symbolic lake of fire - meaning - figurative, concepts such as death and Hades also thrown in - meaning - the second death - meaning - complete separation and annihilation before god - evidence - satan will be destroyed - Hebrews 2:14

so you see even after all your claims have been made and substantiated in the light of biblical verse we simply are able to reach the same well founded and established conclusion, the punishment for sin is death, the very antithesis of life and i thank God and Christ for having given me the common sense and logic to see through this fallacy!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Then why does Revelation 14:11 say they have no rest?

It is unusual to go back to the Old Testament to find the definition of the second death when the definition is plainly given in the New Testament:
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as i have stated many times jaywill, one must view the scri e many and the implications profound. do you like my little lines dividing up the thoughts?

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as i have stated many times jaywill, one must view the scripture in its immediate context and the context of the bible as a whole, all scripture is inspired and beneficial!
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I said that the straight forward and immediate definition of the lake of fire is given to us in Rev. 20:14 - "This is the second death, the lake of fire."

That in no way discourages any Bible reader from considering the wider context of the rest of the 65 books of the Bible. It only advizes one to be cautious when one fishes out from the Old Testament some definition which would deny that "This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Going back to Ecclesiastes to make the torment, hurt, punishment of the lake of fire somehow go away is very unconvincing. It appears as grasping at straws to deny what one cannot stand to accept.


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"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night .."

Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke - the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction - that continues forever, not the fiery torment.
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" ... they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever ..." (Rev. 20:10)

Since " they will tormented day and night for ever and ever " it also says in Rev. 14:11 that "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever."

I see no way out of the double confirmation of Revelation 20:10 and 14:11.

To be respectful of Epi's purpose for this thread, I think what we should think about is Christ's wonderful salvation which can save a sinner from such a fate. No one reading this discussion need to have such a fate, because Jesus saves if you believe into Him.


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among other reasons, “the wild beast and the false prophet” and “death and Hades” will end up in what is here called “the lake of fire.”
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I fully agree that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire and that this is very symbolic.

However, Robert, it is extremely difficult to understand the lake of fire as anything but a place to avoid at all costs. Whatever other symbolism is associated with it in Scripture, it is clearly communicated that it is an awful and terrible matter which all should wish to avoid through the redemption of Jesus Christ.

So while I concede that I have no data on the tempurature of the lake of fire, or how an fallen angel such as the Devil would be hurt there, let alone Death or Hades, I can be assured this: The "lake of fire," the second death, is the worse possible future. And that includes being WORSE than any kind of annhilation and non-existence.

That aspect of it is cleary communicated by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit seems to have gone out of His way to assure us that the second death is worse than annhilation or non-existence whatever it is.

I would refer you to Revelation 9:5,6 concerning some people living on the earth during the great tribulation

" And it was given them [demonic scorpions] that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man,

And in those days men will seek death and shall by no menas find it; and they will long to die, and death flees from them."

The point here is that some people unaware that God can still punish beyond the grave, will seek death to escape the torment. They wrongly assume that they can be relieved from thier pains by being dead. For five months God sees to it that death alludes them.

Those in the second death also are discribed as undergoing torment (Rev. 20:10). The clearly communicated implications of all this is that annhilation or "death" in the erroneous human understanding of escape from judgment will not save one from damnation.

It is a fate worse than annhilation or non-existence. Otherwise I think you would see in Revelation sinners gladly going to the lake of fire in order to escape the just judgments of God against thier sins.

We shouldn't think about it too much. We should turn our eyes to the Savior and Lord Jesus Christ and thank Him that we do not have to share the punishment originally prepared for the devil and his angels.

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As you may easily conclude jaywill, the beast, the false prophet, death, and hades are not literal persons, therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment, no, no instead consider the words of G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, “the lake of fire” means “extinction and total oblivion.” This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”
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This certainly does not sound like total oblivion - "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

I don't know what grand amount of wishful thinking can understand that to be anything other than a fate worse than oblivion and unconscious annhilation. The Bible simply does no allow us to get that understanding, regardless of the other abstract symbols spoken of.


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also i think that your other references relate to the final destruction not their torment as has been erroneously asserted, please feel free to take your time, as quite clearly the points raised were many and the implications profound. do you like my little lines dividing up the thoughts?
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As you can see, I imitated your way of dividing paragraphs.

You can also see that it really doesn't take too much effort to understand from the Bible that it went very far to make sure we understood that there is no, I say, NO escape from the pain of the second death apart from salvation in Christ and/or by Christ.

The only escape from the hurt of the second death is that Christ and God make the decision that you do not go there. (And note: I did not say that Christianity makes the decision. I said that Christ makes the decision. There is IMO, a difference.)

Annhilation will not save them. Only Christ and God putting their names in the book of life will save them. "Death" as assumed non-existence will not save the damned. Christ will save from being damned. So seek Jesus Christ for that and other reasons.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]At first keep in mind that the authors of the scriptures were not at all fluent in Greek...

Could you provide a source for this?

And "kolasis" means definately "punishment/ amputation"...

I don't care who your ancestors are - do you have a source for this? The reason I ask is, every modern lexicon disagrees with you.
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...[text shortened]... y to determine the meaning of a word by its derivation.[/b]

Hey epi,

The etymology of the words and the exelis of their meaning through time is quoted in the New Greek Language Lexicon, G. Babiniotis Athens 2004. Lots of information you may find too at the Linguistic Archive of the Univercity of Athens.

The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and speak Alexandrine Koine Greek. The use of a broken Koine Greek caused the fierce opposition from the Atticists -the scholars wanted to keep the AtticoIonian intact. Amongst the Atticists the most famous, Phrynichus, was appaled by the fact that the Christian authors were using many semetic and latin words (ie assarion, kentyrion, kinsos, kodrantis, korvanas, legion, lention, xestis, retha, soudarion, speculator, fraggelion, fraggelo etc, and please note that these words could have been avoided very easily by anybody who could speak Koine well! Furthermore Luke uses "fraggeloun" instead of "poedeuvein" and "modios" instead of "skevos" etc).

The Atticists had no problem at all to show that the Christian authors were so ignorant that they even created their own, clearly false grammar and syntaxis. And then they proved easily that the Christian authors were solicists ("soloikismos" = "when one speaks Greek like the villagers of Soloi" = the villagers of Soloi cannot speak Greek properly = solicism).

For example Phrynichus was opposing John proving that the right word for the "bed" is "skibbus" instead of "kravvaton", he was opposing Matthew with the correct "vrexein" or yein" instead of "vrexei epi dikaious kai adikous", he was opposing Luke who wrote "...egoggyzon oi grammateis" instead of "...entothryzon", he showed that many forms ("pantote", the type "imin" of the verb "eimi" etc.) are tottaly wrong, etc. Therefore the total ignorance of the AtticoIonian Greek and the use of a broken Koine Greek by the Christian authors is obvious.

The smart Christian authors used indeed the franca lingua of their time, the international language of that period, in order to forward their religion as much as possible; but then, as soon as the Christian religion became a well established power, Christianity left Koine and joined forces with the Atticism in order to offer a greater status to the scriptures. In fact, here in Greece, the endless Atticism of the Orthodox Christian Church caused numerous main linguistic and social problems which they were finaly solved in ...1976!

You could expect, epi, that thanks to the spread of the Christianity the "glossa" of the Christian authors whould push the Greeks to use it in the future, however this never happened. What did happened is that the mistakes and the solicisms of the Christian authors were incorporated in the Koine as an "exelixis" process and they were absorbed whilst the infrastucture of our grammar and syntaxis remained almost intact. This is a normality which it takes place within every language.

We Greeks we speak the same language for 4.000 years and we have written tradition since 1500BC. The Alexandrine Koine was an international language at the period 300BC-300/ 350AC. Today a typical Greek uses in his everyday life 2.280 words out of the roughly 4.900 that we find in the NT. From the rest words he understands perfectly the 2.200, and only about 400 are really incomprehensible by him. So today I tell somebody that "this atheist will go straight to hell" (kolasi, an exelixis of the kolasis/ geena with fire and all that jazz); and I will tell to my wife "to go to bed" (krevvati, an exelixis from the wrong "kravvaton" instead of the accurate AtticoIonian "skibbus" ); but this has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian scriptures are full of solicisms -it is assumed that the persons which they undertook the translation of the scriptures in Greek were neither coordinated properly nor decent translators.

So where are we now? A specific word (kolasis, aionios etc), or the seemingly simple "kolasin aionion" could have any of the scientifically accepted as correct meanings that they are valid at the time in which they are used. Therefore the soldier and the merchant who speak Koine around the first and the second AC century will understand "everlasting hell", but a scholar and a well educated citizen may well understand also "a condition in which one will have to be corrected" for a very long period or ...eis tous aionas ton aionon.

Amen😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Hey epi,

The etymology of the words and the exelis of their meaning through time is quoted in the New Greek Language Lexicon, G. Babiniotis Athens 2004. Lots of information you may find too at the Linguistic Archive of the Univercity of Athens.

The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and s d or ...eis tous aionas ton aionon.

Amen😵

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The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and speak Alexandrine Koine Greek. The use of a broken Koine Greek caused the fierce opposition from the Atticists -the scholars wanted to keep the AtticoIonian intact.
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That is rather interesting. I know nothing about that. However, opposition to the Gospel itself is very common. And people make various excuses why they are opposed to it.

Some Ephesian artisans said that they opposed Paul's gospel preaching because they lost revenue from selling idols. Sounds quite legitimate.

How do we know that these Atticists were not simply opposed to the Gospel itself on general principle?

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So where are we now? A specific word (kolasis, aionios etc), or the seemingly simple "kolasin aionion" could have any of the scientifically accepted as correct meanings that they are valid at the time in which they are used. Therefore the soldier and the merchant who speak Koine around the first and the second AC century will understand "everlasting hell", but a scholar and a well educated citizen may well understand also "a condition in which one will have to be corrected" for a very long period or ...eis tous aionas ton aionon.
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Something as important as the nature of being lost is repeated enough times and in enough different ways that the Bible reader is well informed.

Mttthew 25:41 alone need not be the only passage upon which our understanding of eternal retribution depends.

"and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10)

Compare: (Rev. 22:5) - " ... and they shall reign for ever and ever."

All told, the concept of endlessness is communicated to most of us.

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The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and s d or ...eis tous aionas ton aionon.
====================================

It is important for the seeker of the truth, I think, to ask:

Does such knowledge as this tend to encrease my desire to draw near to Jesus Christ ? Does it encease my hunger for Christ ? Or does it tend to dampen my desire for Christ? Does this knowledge make me feel that it is not that important that I know Christ as the Lord ?

What effect on one's spiritual hunger to know God does this kind of knowledge have?

Maybe before one knew this information, she had her heart turned to God and to Jesus the Savior. But after taking this in perhaps one is "cooled down" thinking that maybe Jesus is not that important afterall.

I don't argue with the information's truthfulness or lack thereof. I caution the seeker to the effect on one's hunger for God it has.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]================================
The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and speak Alexandrine Koine Greek. The use of a broken Koine Greek caused the fierce opposition from the Atticists -the scholars wanted to keep the AtticoIonian intact.
===================================

That is ...[text shortened]... d ever."[/b]

All told, the concept of endlessness is communicated to most of us.[/b]

jaywill pal,

the Atticists wanted only to keep the language of their fathers intact, nothing more and nothing less. Their rhetorics of the Atticists were so strong that the first Christians (John, Gregory etc) were oblidged to learn perfectly AtticoIonian (and) Rhetoric in order to prove that they were as wise and skillful as their opponents, and of course in order to become able to tackle the non believers with their apologetics. So the Christians switched to the Atticism because they had to.

Thanks to these bright Christian scholars, which in fact they became excellent Atticists, the scriptures did gained status and in addition the Christian word was perfectly spread by far better. For example, smart John used perfectly the Alexandrine Koine by incorporating in his gospel the AtticoIonian syntaxis and style of reasoning, and he was so skillful that he gained from his audience the nickname "Chrisostomos".

But a language is a living existence; the Orthodox Greeks started soon to promote solely the Atticism of John Chrisostomos etc whilst they were blocking constantly the free flow of the everyday language of their time because they wanted to keep intact the "spirit of the scriptures"! As a result, after some centuries the typical Greek could understand but a fragment out of the scriptures due to the fact that Atticism was well dead long ago. This caused the social/ linguistic problems I mentioned earlier but that's another story.

Regarding the second part of your post, we agree that, through differ corrections and exelixis, the everyday meaning of the word "kolasi" today is "hell" with fire and all.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===========================
The authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek although they could understand and s d or ...eis tous aionas ton aionon.
====================================

It is important for the seeker of the truth, I think, to ask:

Does such knowledge as this tend to encrease my desire to draw near to ...[text shortened]... ulness or lack thereof. I caution the seeker to the effect on one's hunger for God it has.[/b]

Obviously this knowlegde has nothing to do with one's desire to be Christian or not, regardless his denomination. For me, this knowledge is just another piece of the great puzzle of the configuration of my native language; and as such I consider it vital, because I earn my life thanks to my ability to use Modern Greek properly.

But I understand what you mean regarding "the seeker of the truth". Me in person, I seek not "the truth" ; I only see friends over here debating over an issue to which I am indifferent, and if I 'm lucky I will learn a thing or two about their way of thinking although that the knowledge which I may gain could be "worthless" as I am not a Christian.
But anyway, I think that the info I posted cannot push a person to think "...that Jesus is not important afterall". Everyone here is aware of his own beliefs and opinions regarding the scriptures, and this fact will not change because the authors of the scriptures were not fluent in AtticoIonian Greek. Hey jaywill, even Thoukydides was not fluent in AtticoIonian!!