Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Going back to Ecclesiastes to make the torment, hurt, punishment of the lake of fire somehow go away is very unconvincing. It appears as grasping at straws to deny what one cannot stand to accept.
well jaywill if you want to deny the inspiration of scripture then who am i to chastise you?
interestingly you and that bad ol putty cat seem to hav It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment
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have ignored many more scriptural references which have a bearing on this, simply because they do not comply with your theology
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Let's see what you say I ignored.
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1.the fact that satan is destroyed - hebrews 2;14
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In the subjective experience of those who give themselves wholly to the indwelling Christ, they will notice that the Holy Spirit destroys the Devil in thier experience.
The Christian who apply the Holy Spirit experience the defeat of Satan subjectively in thier individual and collective church life.
The final execution of Satan by throwing Satan into the lake of fire will come after the millennial kingdom
(Rev. 20:10). This rebel is defeated in successive and progressive stages. One level of defeat was when Christ died and rose. Another level of defeat is as the believers are saturated with the Spirit of Christ to crush Satan under the feet of the new testament church.
"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)
The deeper the overcomig believers enjoy the grace of the indwelling Spirit of Christ which is in them the more Satan's work in them is destroyed. God must have the testimony of this experiencial victory over the Devil before He literally sends him to the eternal damnation.
I do believe that Christ destroyed the Devil on the cross. I do not use this passage to deny that Satan will be cast into eternal perdition at the end of the millennial kingdom as taught in
Revelation 20:10.
2.the word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process. Similarly, "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) and "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12) do not mean that judgment and redemption will continue throughout eternity, but rather that their results are eternal.
I did not ignore this. I pointed out that having no rest day and night forever and ever in
Rev. 14:11 is definitely a ongoing process. This specific description of the lost's torment is regardless of
Hebrews 6:2 and 9:12)
I did not ignore your point. It appears that you ignored my reply.
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3.The wicked are to suffer torment at the Judgment Day (Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48), but this is not eternal torment. Other Scriptures either state or imply a termination of the torment. For example:
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This complaint is based on the assumption that all punishment of sin is eternal. There is remedial punishment for correction. This fact however does not negate that there is ALSO eternal punishment.
1.) Matthew 8:12 - "the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."
The outer darkness is another place of punishment beside the lake of fire. The outer darkness is outside of the glory of Christ's earthly reign during the millennial kingdom.
Some defeated believers who did not overcome to be victorious will be disciplined by being cast into the outer darkness. In this passage the Lord Jesus refers to
"the sons of the kingdom". Yet in
Matthew 13:38 He says
"and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom". Verse 43 proves that the sons of the kingdom are those justified to be righteous.
Therefore some sons of the kingdom are defeated and will not be rewarded with the millennial kingdom. And some other sons of the kingdom will be overcomers to be rewarded to
"shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of theeir Father."
So the sons of the kingdom cast into outer darkness are Christians who in the church age were so defeated that they receive disciplinary punishment during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
NOTE to Epi. Epi if you are reading I would recollect that you highly recommended Watchman Nee's book
Spiritual Authority. And on this point of believers being cast into the outer darkness I would recommend that you read two other books by the same Watchman Nee:
1. The King and the Kingdom of the Heavens
2. The Gospel of God, Volume II
If you highly regard Watchman Nee, you will see in these two books the scriptural basis upon which I state that some believers as
sons of the kingdom will be cast temporarily into the outer darkness. This is not eternal perdition as many assume.
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a. Speaking of those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ", the Apostle Paul states that they "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thess. 1:9)
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I don't think I ignored this point either. I pointed out that to those described as being thrown into the lake of fire, the torment of which is described in
Rev. 14:11 and 20:10 certainly fit the description of under going
"everlasting destruction."
I do not think you can your 2 Thess 1:9 to prove that annhilation awaits those going to the lake of fire to be tormented. Second Thess. 1:9 does not prove the oblivion or non-existence of those thus judged.
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b. Jesus stated that "if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6). To be "cast forth as a branch" and "burned" suggests termination of the burning when that which is burnable is consumed.
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Here again I may not have made a long post on this point. But I did not ignore it.
This action in John 15 I believe is not eternal punishment. But it is unpleasant, to be avoided, and correctional. It is not conceavable to me that the Apostle John would contradict himself and the Lord's teaching by now teaching that disciples could perish forever.
Cut off branches from the True Vine must be in the same class as
"sons of the kingdom" being cast into outer darkness.
Also so, this buring in John 15 could mean that the believer falls back into the world and into a backslidden life. And in such a life the worldly people effectively "burn" him of the life juice within so that he becomes a dried up backslider.
"They gather them" might refer not to angels but to fleshly and worldly people who gather defeated Christians to their godless way of life rendering the defeated believer unable to bear fruit for Christ.
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c. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake . . . to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2 cf. Jn. 5:29) It is the contempt or damnation which is everlasting, not the conscious torment
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You are not doing too well on passages which you say I ignored. I did not ignore Daniel either.
Go back and read. I said that it was unlikely that this would not mean eternal perdition. That is because the teaching of
Isaiah 66:24 and used by Jesus in
Mark 9:48 emphasizes the endless suffering of the final judgment of man -
"For their worm will not die".
This expression was used by Christ to warn of a punishment which has no cessation.
" ... it is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna. WHERE THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."
This is a difficult passage because it is spoken to His disciples. And I am not at this time giving a fuller interpretation to it.
Suffice it to say that the way Jesus refers to
Isaiah 66:24 it strongly suggests that He is emphasizing the endless misery of those cast into this Gehenna.
But we could have a thread on this passage alone if you want more discussion of it.
This is perhaps your strongest complaint. But I did not ignore it before and do not do so now. And it requires more explanation than I am giving you in this post.
Important points to remember about this post:
1.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does NOT preclude that all judgment mentioned by Jesus refers to the lake of fire. Ie. -
the outer darkness where there is also weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does NOT preclude that Jesus cannot severely yet temporarily discipline for correction His own people after His second coming. The
sons of the kingdom can be temporarily disciplined.
3.) A teaching of eternal perdition in the second death - the lake of fire, does not even preclude that NO Christian could be HURT by it temporarily.
Epi might strongly disagree. And I respect his view. But I would recommend that he read
The Gospel of God, Volume 2 by Watchman Nee and
The King and the Kingdom of the Heavens by the same teacher on this point.
I would also recommend the writings of
Robert Govette on the kingdom rewards and disciplines in the coming millennial kingdom.
Robert, do you require more elaboration from me on any of these "ignored" points above ?