Spirituality
05 Feb 11
05 Feb 11
1 edit
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
05 Feb 11
4 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe belief that God wants the saved to go to Heaven forever is not to be found in the Bible to begin with. So the premise is something of a strawman argument.
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
I am not saying there is no Heaven. Nor am I saying that there are no passages about the believers in heaven.
But the emphasis on going to a happy place in Christianity is really not very biblical. And to wonder why there is an earth when Christians talk so much about Heaven is a perfectly legitimate question.
I don't think the answers you would receive from evangelicals on why, would be very good answers IMO.
Some of my brethren might protest that it depends on what one means by Heaven. If they mean that the "new heaven and the new earth" where righteousness dwells is generally Heaven, I understand. But I think it is misleading and problematic to reason this way.
The eternal destiny of the saved sons of God is "The New Jerusalem" which figure I hold is highly symbolic in Revelation 21 and 22. And she comes down OUT of heaven.
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by SwissGambit3] the people in heaven have free will. ive never read this. the people in heaven do the will of god, free will came from eating of the tree of knowledge and were cast out from the garden.
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by SwissGambitThis is just another silly attempt to try to explain why God does things. The best answer is 'don't try to figure it out'. God does things in his own time, and for his own reasons. You simply have to take a few things on faith.
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by SwissGambitYour post is titled 'Heaven', and you address it only for Christians.
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
Why?
Atheist Buddhists have an equally legitimate 'heaven'. Why did you choose to exclude a response from such?
-m.
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by mikelomBecause we are a very exclusive club, we cant have all sorts of riff raff buddhists and heaven forbid, base materialists showing up. Bouncers, eject this man! pronto!
Your post is titled 'Heaven', and you address it only for Christians.
Why?
Atheist Buddhists have an equally legitimate 'heaven'. Why did you choose to exclude a response from such?
-m.
05 Feb 11
2 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambit1.Actually its not quite true that no one in heaven sins, for example, we have this rather famous incident,
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
(Revelation 12:7-10) . . .And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven.
2. Why did God create the earth?
(Isaiah 45:18) . . .For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. . .
(Psalm 115:16) . . .As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.
Thus while heaven was intended to be an abode of spiritual entities, the earth was given as an abode for mankind.
3. Freewill necessitates that a person has choice in a matter and can make a wise or an unwise decision within certain parameters, anything else and they become auto-bots.
4. It must be noted that there are no people in heaven, only spiritual entities,
(1 Corinthians 15:50) . . .However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. . .
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDamn it! Visha is right. Buddhists are worthless.
Because we are a very exclusive club, we cant have all sorts of riff raff buddhists and heaven forbid, base materialists showing up. Bouncers, eject this man! pronto!
I will close the door quietly behind me, on my way out. :'(
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by SwissGambitGod started with that pattern, it didn't work. Creating people with free will and independant thought opens the possibility of being in relationship with the divine. If we remove free will from the equation, then the possibility of partnership or relationship ceases to exist. I think this is paramount in understanding our purpose as a species.
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
05 Feb 11
Originally posted by SwissGambit",..why did God create Earth,.."
For the Christians in the audience...
1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
Look, understanding "why" is a big step. The Bible is simple, but not simplistic.
One needs a thorough working knowledge of the Bible's contents if one is going to find meaning and understanding. Having said that, I will tell you this in answer to your question. You can choose to believe me or not.
The earth was originally created for another purpose, but now, as a short answer, the world is a proving ground. This life will play out, and in the end God will have accomplished His purpose and will sort it all out.
Heaven is beyond our imagination. We are here now, and it is here that we prove who and what we are. It is our choice to do with this life what we can.
There will be no excuses. We have only one plea. Christ!
08 Feb 11
Originally posted by stokerOK, so God is content to have robots that are programmed to serve him. If so, why offer humanity the choice of free will in the first place? Free will is just the chance to go wrong.
3] the people in heaven have free will. ive never read this. the people in heaven do the will of god, free will came from eating of the tree of knowledge and were cast out from the garden.
08 Feb 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDo you think there are spiritual entities in Heaven that used to be people? Or will there be?
1.Actually its not quite true that no one in heaven sins, for example, we have this rather famous incident,
(Revelation 12:7-10) . . .And [b]war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven.
2. Why ...[text shortened]... . .However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. . .[/b]