Heaven

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Do you think these spiritual entities that used to be people will be capable of committing sin?

mmm, this is a good question, clearly there were Angels in heaven that sinned,

(Jude 6) . . .And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. . .

Whether these ones will sin, mmm, i need to get back to you on that!

Originally posted by jaywill
The first problem should now be addressed ?

Yes, it would appear so.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Yes, it would appear so.

If so then I assume this is the other problem:

why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?

I don't know. But I will tell you what I think.

The direction of history is without doubt moving in that direction of having ALL beings in harmony with God. To that there is no doubt. He is MOVING things that way. The climax of His operation is ascending to that high point.

The problem is why should God have not made it so that His perfect will involved no plan of salvation, no moving or working on His part ?

It must have something to do with God wanting man to be God in life and nature (but not in the Godhead). He did not instantaneously make a creater with His eternal life. He created a very high being and allowed this one to be an opposite to all that God is.

Then He seems to use this nemesis as a resevoir to gather up into one "container" as it were, all beings created by Him that for one reason or another want nothing to do with Him. Satan is a way for God to gather up every and all opposition parties in the universe into one repository for destruction.

And in addition He can dispense Himself into man, unite with man, mingle with man and make man an expansion of His own being. This sharing of God's life is something that Satan never had. He had the highest created wisdom, the highsest created beauty, the highest created knowledge, the highest created authority, probably the highest created power, his own kingdom, his own world, maybe even his own creatures. He did not have God living in him.

Then when this highest being rebelled to want to replace God, God used him to gather up into one grand repository ALL other beings with freedom of will, who for whatever reason want nothing to do with their Creator.

Afterwards, after all these rebels and revolters are gathered up under Satan, they are cast into eternal punishement.

And God and man are "organically" united and incorporated, headed up by Jesus Christ the God-man.

History is moving in that direction. The Bible moves from Genesis to Revelation in that direction, though it is easy to get distracted along the way.

God wants man to be united with Himself. What this looks like is called Jesus Christ. And what He wants is to mass produce sons of God as an encrease and extension and expansion of the mingling of God and man.

It requires WORK on His part. So He did not simply and instantaneously make all creation that way. Now He may have originally made it very good (Gen. 1:31). But there was and is something to work out and some ones to work Himself into - to build Himself into man and build man into Himself.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
So do you think there is free will in Heaven or not?

There are two types of will. Explicit directive will and permissive will. In the ending God's explicit will will be forced on all with the iron rod of His inflexible Righteousness. Free will at the end will only be allowed when there is no insult to God's Holyness.

Originally posted by gambit3
Free will at the end will only be allowed when there is no insult to God's Holyness.

How will this be enforced?

Originally posted by jaywill
Afterwards, after all these rebels and revolters are gathered up under Satan, they are cast into eternal punishement.

This seems like such a shameful result. If God is able to see the future, he knew in advance who would accept him and who would reject him. The hell-bound would have been better off if they were never created in the first place.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This seems like such a shameful result. If God is able to see the future, he knew in advance who would accept him and who would reject him. The hell-bound would have been better off if they were never created in the first place.

yes indeed which makes a mockery of Gods justice.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
How will this be enforced?

Man has his various courts and judgments. God has His corrective judgment of the saints and His execution judgment of the ?amned. A little insight into God's execution judgment. Revelation 20:10-15. .........And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. As far as the people in Heaven sinning? Revelation 21:1,2,7,10,23,24,27and John3:16. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John (the Apostle) saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven....He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. ......And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,.....And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. ......And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. .......whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. When a person dies he enters eternity in a spiritual state of being of life or death. Those that die in Christ will have everlasting life not life till he alienates himself again from God's righteousness, holyness, and or grace. God will not tolerate any insult to His holyness from any being after they have ended their test as to whether they will choose life or death.

Originally posted by jaywill
If so then I assume this is the other problem:

[b]why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?

I don't know. But I will tell you what I think.

The direction of history is without doubt moving in that direction of having ALL beings in harm ...[text shortened]... and some ones to work Himself into - to build Himself into man and build man into Himself.[/b]

Yeah, thats a brave answer, which I kind of sympathize with, however what do you think of this:
"God" is bringing more "Light" (Gods light😉 ), into this part of the universe/multiverse. Hence the spiritual evolution of human beings at this point in our timeline (?)

Our part of the universe is a bit out of the way for most of the more intellegent beings in our universe. But some (E.T.) races are making the long trip to witness or help in this event.
Jesus knew what his revolution would accomplish, though how many would make it has always been in question. The only answer I have found to this question comes through my research into ufo-lore. No other (older) religons know any saisfying answers to this question, that I've come across anyway.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
For the Christians in the audience...

1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will

If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?

If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?

Sin and war started in Heaven when the Devil and his followers were kicked out
of Heaven and ended up on earth. The 2nd death will occur during judment day
in Heaven, I imagine with that there will be pain and suffering knowing what is
coming. Once evil is dealt with it will be done away with and no one will find it worth
doing again, it is not necessary for any reason so everyone will have free will, but
they will be mature enough to know how to avoid that which wrong and evil and
if temptations to do those things do occur evil will simply be rejected.
Kelly