Originally posted by Doward
God started with that pattern, it didn't work. Creating people with free will and independant thought opens the possibility of being in relationship with the divine. If we remove free will from the equation, then the possibility of partnership or relationship ceases to exist. I think this is paramount in understanding our purpose as a species.

So do you think there is free will in Heaven or not?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
OK, so God is content to have robots that are programmed to serve him. If so, why offer humanity the choice of free will in the first place? Free will is just the chance to go wrong.

Thats how we learn

Originally posted by jaywill
The belief that God wants the saved to go to Heaven forever is not to be found in the Bible to begin with. So the premise is something of a strawman argument.

I am not saying there is no Heaven. Nor am I saying that there are no passages about the believers in heaven.

But the emphasis on going to a happy place in Christianity is really not very bibl ...[text shortened]... figure I hold is highly symbolic in Revelation 21 and 22. And she comes down OUT of heaven.

I never said the saved go to Heaven forever.

Nor did I say it was a happy place.

Care to take another stab at addressing the content of my post?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Thats how we learn

Couldn't God create us as he likes? Why make a flawed being who needs to learn when you can make an enlightened one who already has the right knowledge?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Couldn't God create us as he likes? Why make a flawed being who needs to learn when you can make an enlightened one who already has the right knowledge?

Because that is not the nature of the "Great Spiral", that is reality

(I dont think we are assuming the same concepts of God, hence my off-beat answer.)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Because that is not the nature of the "Great Spiral", that is reality

(I dont think we are assuming the same concepts of God, hence my off-beat answer.)

I sense a Buddhist trying to participate in a thread aimed at Christians 😠

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Do you think there are spiritual entities in Heaven that used to be people? Or will there be?

Yes according to scripture there will be, although they are now spiritual entities, not flesh and blood

(1 Corinthians 15:42-44)  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption.  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power.  It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . .

🙂

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I sense a Buddhist trying to participate in a thread aimed at Christians 😠

Problem? 🙂

Originally posted by mikelom
Damn it! Visha is right. Buddhists are worthless.

I will close the door quietly behind me, on my way out. :'(

No one is worthless....why?

Because what we see with our eyes, and hear with our ears of people, is only the illusion of life passing by.

The soul is pure and perfect, always was and always will be.

All the different bodies of dust, with their material minds and ego's are temporary illusions coming and going with the passing of time.

Still the activities of the temporary material body and mind, shall directly affect the movements of the material bodies through the function of the law of karma, and where the next birth takes place, is where the soul must follow as well.....for how could the next body take birth without the presence of the soul (which is the life)

The real person the soul is not directly associated with all the activities of the material bodies, but the soul is indirectly connected to the material body and remains uncontaminated eternally.

This is why there is no such thing as condemnation of the person by the Lord... as substitute religion would falsely present.

Would the Lord condemn the eternal pure soul....not possible

Would the Lord condemn the material body of dust.........not possible.

If the material body of dust and the material mind get caught up in sinful activities, then the law of karma which is no respector of persons, shall afford the person the results of their actions by arranging the soul to take a particular birth that is be-fitting to the life they lived with the particular actions they performed.

You could conclude that this illusionary life of birth, disease old age and death, is just a dry run at life, before the person could ever return back to their real home, back to Godhead.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
For the Christians in the audience...

1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will

If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?

If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?

For the alcoholics in the audiance.

1. Everyone in heaven is happy.
2. Those who get drunk become happy.
3. So let's all get drunk and go to heaven!! 😛

The way I see it, if you did not give creation the free will to reject you then they are merely an appendage. It would be akin to those in your life not being able to reject you. Would it really be a loving relationship? After all, love dictates that the other might not return love, otherwise they too are either a slave or an appendage.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes according to scripture there will be, although they are now spiritual entities, not flesh and blood

(1 Corinthians 15:42-44)  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption.  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. [b] It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . .

🙂[/b]

Do you think these spiritual entities that used to be people will be capable of committing sin?

Originally posted by whodey
For the alcoholics in the audiance.

1. Everyone in heaven is happy.
2. Those who get drunk become happy.
3. So let's all get drunk and go to heaven!! 😛

The way I see it, if you did not give creation the free will to reject you then they are merely an appendage. It would be akin to those in your life not being able to reject you. Would it really ...[text shortened]... es that the other might not return love, otherwise they too are either a slave or an appendage.

So do you think there is free will in Heaven or not?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
For the Christians in the audience...

1) No one sins in heaven
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
3) The people in heaven have free will

If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?

If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?

You asked me to take another stab at your post. Okay, this time I will be more direct to your questions.

===================================
For the Christians in the audience...

1) No one sins in heaven
========================

I don't know.

But the prayer that Christ instructed as a model says "Your will be done on earth, even as it is in heaven"

I would assume this indicates no sins in heaven among the angels. But on the other hand in the book of Job Satan appears before God with slanders which are sins. So I have to say I don't know.

=========================
2) There is no pain, suffering or death in heaven
===========================

I doubt it.

=========================
3) The people in heaven have free will
============================

That assumes that there are "people in heaven" doesn't it ?

That is why I gave some time to your presuppositions which you regarded as missing the mark of your questions.

It is not that easy to find any passage in the Bible before Revelation that speaks of people in heaven. Maybe some might point to some candidates. In spite of popular assumptions among Christians, it is not easy to find a Bible verse telling us of people in heaven.

The book of Revelation and end time matters is an exception. And most of those things from chapter 6 are apparently still future to us. I don't think the "sixth seal" has been yet opened.

Does that answer your question ?

===============================
If these premises are true, why did God create Earth and Hell at all? Why not just create Heaven, and fill it with enlightened people who always choose to do the right thing?
===============================

So you see I am to adopt your presuppositions. Since I questioned one of them, I won't garuantee that your premises are true.

==========================
If one or more premise is false, which one is it and why?
=============================

I said, "I don't know" and I said "I doubt it".

Now, why God created the earth ? Do you wish me to say something about that in spite of not embracing your premises ?

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth ..." . This is John uttering what he saw in the endless ages of the future. So I would assume that the creation of the earth has to do with God's eternal purpose.

It is not hard to read carefully for one's self the Bible. Taking a pen and underlining certain things that you notice is effective. Then one does not always have to go by what is traditional or what you think people expect you to believe. You know what is actually written there.

Then rather then take my or someone else's word for it, you can at least gather up facts as they are stated, decide what you want to believe, and answer some of these questions for yourself.

Then again maybe your just interested in questioning Christians about what you assume they believe.

Originally posted by jaywill
You asked me to take another stab at your post. Okay, this time I will be more direct to your questions.

[b]===================================
For the Christians in the audience...

1) No one sins in heaven
========================

I don't know.

But the prayer that Christ instructed as a model says "Your will be done on st interested in questioning Christians about what you assume they believe.[/b]

I would assume this indicates no sins in heaven among the angels. But on the other hand in the book of Job Satan appears before God with slanders which are sins. So I have to say I don't know.

I should have been more clear. I am thinking of the time when the old earth has 'passed away' and everyone has been judged. Those found in the book of Life have gone to Heaven. Those not found in the book of Life have gone to Hell. After this is done, will those who have gone to Heaven be capable of committing sin?

I doubt it.

Why?

Now, why God created the earth ? Do you wish me to say something about that in spite of not embracing your premises ?

Let's resolve the difficulties with the premises first.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I would assume this indicates no sins in heaven among the angels. But on the other hand in the book of Job Satan appears before God with slanders which are sins. So I have to say I don't know.

I should have been more clear. I am thinking of the time when the old earth has 'passed away' and everyone has been judged. Those found in the book of Li ...[text shortened]... not embracing your premises ?[/i]

Let's resolve the difficulties with the premises first.

==========================
I should have been more clear. I am thinking of the time when the old earth has 'passed away' and everyone has been judged. Those found in the book of Life have gone to Heaven. Those not found in the book of Life have gone to Hell. After this is done, will those who have gone to Heaven be capable of committing sin?
=============================

Oh, I see. That's different.

Well there is still, IMO, a presumption here that in Heaven is where the saved are. But I think I can answer your question anyway.

After the judgment of the great white throne and the bringing in of the new heaven and the new earth, sin is gone as far as I can see.

"But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13)

Righteness dwells eternally in the new heaven and new earth following the last judgment sometime after the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. ... Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away.

And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write, for these words are faithful and true,

And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely." (Rev. 21:1,3-6)

Sin, death, sorrow, tears by then are no more forever.

In the eternal damnation negative things will remain as germs in a trash can. And those with eternal life may even peer down into this "trash can" and see the horrors going on.

" For as the new heavens and new earth , which I make, remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain ... Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (See Isaiah 66:21,22, 24)


Sin and death, sorrow and pain, sickness and misery, rebellion and revolt are gone forever in the new heaven and new earth in which "righteousness dwells".

The first problem should now be addressed ?